* (no subject) @ 2001-12-07 4:17 Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:30 ` [kbuild-devel] (no subject) Tom Rini 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 4:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: kbuild-devel; +Cc: linux-kernel, torvalds Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. I want to do this in separate steps to make it easier for architectures that have not been converted yet. 2.5.1 Semi-stable kernel, after bio is working. 2.5.2-pre1 Add the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 code, still using Makefile-2.5, supporting both CML1 and CML2. i386, sparc, sparc64 can use either kbuild 2.4 or 2.5, 2.5 is recommended. ia64 can only use kbuild 2.5. Other architectures continue to use kbuild 2.4. Wait 24 hours for any major problems then - 2.5.2-pre2 Remove kbuild 2.4 code, rename Makefile-2.5 to Makefile. Still supporting both CML1 and CML2. i386, ia64, sparc, sparc64 can compile using kbuild 2.5. Other architectures cannot compile until they convert to kbuild 2.5. The kbuild group can help with the conversion but without access to a machine we cannot test other architectures. Until the other archs have been converted, they can stay on 2.5.2-pre1. Wait 24 hours for any major problems then - 2.5.2-pre3 Remove CML1 support. Doing the change in steps provides a platform where both kbuild 2.4 and 2.5 work and both CML1 and CML2 are available. This allows other architectures to parallel test the old and new kbuild and CML during their conversion, I found that ability was very useful during conversion. Linus, is this acceptable? When do you want the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 patches? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] (no subject) 2001-12-07 4:17 Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 4:30 ` Tom Rini 2001-12-07 4:36 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Tom Rini @ 2001-12-07 4:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Keith Owens; +Cc: kbuild-devel, linux-kernel, torvalds On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:17:53PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: > Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. I > want to do this in separate steps to make it easier for architectures > that have not been converted yet. > > 2.5.1 Semi-stable kernel, after bio is working. > > 2.5.2-pre1 Add the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 code, still using > Makefile-2.5, supporting both CML1 and CML2. > i386, sparc, sparc64 can use either kbuild 2.4 or 2.5, > 2.5 is recommended. > ia64 can only use kbuild 2.5. > Other architectures continue to use kbuild 2.4. > Wait 24 hours for any major problems then - Could we wait longer here? Maybe 48 or 72 to give other arches time to convert and attempt to sync again? Or at least show it to Keith so he can try and sync it up. :) -- Tom Rini (TR1265) http://gate.crashing.org/~trini/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] (no subject) 2001-12-07 4:30 ` [kbuild-devel] (no subject) Tom Rini @ 2001-12-07 4:36 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:41 ` Tom Rini 2001-12-07 11:01 ` Russell King 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 4:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tom Rini; +Cc: kbuild-devel, linux-kernel, torvalds On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:30:59 -0700, Tom Rini <trini@kernel.crashing.org> wrote: >On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:17:53PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: >> 2.5.2-pre1 Add the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 code, still using >> Makefile-2.5, supporting both CML1 and CML2. >> i386, sparc, sparc64 can use either kbuild 2.4 or 2.5, >> 2.5 is recommended. >> ia64 can only use kbuild 2.5. >> Other architectures continue to use kbuild 2.4. >> Wait 24 hours for any major problems then - > >Could we wait longer here? Maybe 48 or 72 to give other arches time to >convert and attempt to sync again? Or at least show it to Keith so he >can try and sync it up. :) We will not get all architectures converted in 48 hours or even 72. kbuild 2.5 has been available for months and only i386, ia64, sparc32 (I did all those) and sparc64 (Ben Collins) have been converted. Alpha is in progress. Unconverted architectures stay on 2.5.2-pre1 until they do the conversion, but there is no need to hold up everybody else. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] (no subject) 2001-12-07 4:36 ` Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 4:41 ` Tom Rini 2001-12-07 11:01 ` Russell King 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Tom Rini @ 2001-12-07 4:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Keith Owens; +Cc: kbuild-devel, linux-kernel, torvalds On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:36:13PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: > On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:30:59 -0700, > Tom Rini <trini@kernel.crashing.org> wrote: > >On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:17:53PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: > >> 2.5.2-pre1 Add the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 code, still using > >> Makefile-2.5, supporting both CML1 and CML2. > >> i386, sparc, sparc64 can use either kbuild 2.4 or 2.5, > >> 2.5 is recommended. > >> ia64 can only use kbuild 2.5. > >> Other architectures continue to use kbuild 2.4. > >> Wait 24 hours for any major problems then - > > > >Could we wait longer here? Maybe 48 or 72 to give other arches time to > >convert and attempt to sync again? Or at least show it to Keith so he > >can try and sync it up. :) > > We will not get all architectures converted in 48 hours or even 72. > kbuild 2.5 has been available for months and only i386, ia64, sparc32 > (I did all those) and sparc64 (Ben Collins) have been converted. Alpha > is in progress. Unconverted architectures stay on 2.5.2-pre1 until > they do the conversion, but there is no need to hold up everybody else. I think at least part of it is a time thing. It's not official so it's not on the urgent to do list. Once it gets in I can imagine other people picking it up again. I know rmk mentioned he played with it, 6 months ago. Which is about when I played with PPC too. I imagine once it gets in other people/arches will start to try too, and probably have a few more suggestions for things that i386/ia64/sparc* haven't run into. -- Tom Rini (TR1265) http://gate.crashing.org/~trini/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] (no subject) 2001-12-07 4:36 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:41 ` Tom Rini @ 2001-12-07 11:01 ` Russell King 2001-12-07 11:07 ` Keith Owens 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Russell King @ 2001-12-07 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Keith Owens; +Cc: Tom Rini, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel, torvalds On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:36:13PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: > We will not get all architectures converted in 48 hours or even 72. > kbuild 2.5 has been available for months and only i386, ia64, sparc32 > (I did all those) and sparc64 (Ben Collins) have been converted. Alpha > is in progress. Unconverted architectures stay on 2.5.2-pre1 until > they do the conversion, but there is no need to hold up everybody else. It's a shame that you were too busy to discuss the bugs I found in kbuild 2.5 6 months ago when I tried it on ARM, despite me following it up since. My sympathies are with Tom here, and I think there should be longer than 24 hours for this. -- Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk) The developer of ARM Linux http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] (no subject) 2001-12-07 11:01 ` Russell King @ 2001-12-07 11:07 ` Keith Owens 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 11:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Russell King; +Cc: Tom Rini, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:01:58 +0000, Russell King <rmk@arm.linux.org.uk> wrote: >On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:36:13PM +1100, Keith Owens wrote: >> We will not get all architectures converted in 48 hours or even 72. >> kbuild 2.5 has been available for months and only i386, ia64, sparc32 >> (I did all those) and sparc64 (Ben Collins) have been converted. Alpha >> is in progress. Unconverted architectures stay on 2.5.2-pre1 until >> they do the conversion, but there is no need to hold up everybody else. > >It's a shame that you were too busy to discuss the bugs I found in >kbuild 2.5 6 months ago when I tried it on ARM, despite me following >it up since. What bugs? Details please. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: your mail 2001-12-07 4:17 Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:30 ` [kbuild-devel] (no subject) Tom Rini @ 2001-12-07 5:10 ` Linus Torvalds 2001-12-07 5:12 ` [kbuild-devel] " Eric S. Raymond ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Linus Torvalds @ 2001-12-07 5:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Keith Owens; +Cc: kbuild-devel, linux-kernel On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Keith Owens wrote: > > Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. We're getting the block IO layer in shape first, the time has not come for _anything_ else before that. Linus ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [kbuild-devel] Re: your mail 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds @ 2001-12-07 5:12 ` Eric S. Raymond 2001-12-07 8:29 ` Converting the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5 Keith Owens 2001-12-27 18:09 ` your mail Andre Hedrick 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Eric S. Raymond @ 2001-12-07 5:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Keith Owens, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel Linus Torvalds <torvalds@transmeta.com>: > > Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. > > We're getting the block IO layer in shape first, the time has not come for > _anything_ else before that. Right, that is more important. We'll be ready when you're done. -- <a href="http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a> The kind of charity you can force out of people nourishes about as much as the kind of love you can buy --- and spreads even nastier diseases. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Converting the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds 2001-12-07 5:12 ` [kbuild-devel] " Eric S. Raymond @ 2001-12-07 8:29 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-27 18:09 ` your mail Andre Hedrick 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Keith Owens @ 2001-12-07 8:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: kbuild-devel, linux-kernel On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:10:11 -0800 (PST), Linus Torvalds <torvalds@transmeta.com> wrote: > >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Keith Owens wrote: >> >> Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. > >We're getting the block IO layer in shape first, the time has not come for >_anything_ else before that. That is what I said .... 2.5.1 Semi-stable kernel, after bio is working. 2.5.2-pre1 Add the kbuild 2.5 and CML2 code, still using Makefile-2.5, supporting both CML1 and CML2. 2.5.2-pre2 Remove kbuild 2.4 code, rename Makefile-2.5 to Makefile. Still supporting both CML1 and CML2. 2.5.2-pre3 Remove CML1 support. Is that timetable acceptable? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: your mail 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds 2001-12-07 5:12 ` [kbuild-devel] " Eric S. Raymond 2001-12-07 8:29 ` Converting the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5 Keith Owens @ 2001-12-27 18:09 ` Andre Hedrick 2001-12-27 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds 2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Andre Hedrick @ 2001-12-27 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Keith Owens, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Keith Owens wrote: > > > > Linus, the time has come to convert the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5. > > We're getting the block IO layer in shape first, the time has not come for > _anything_ else before that. > > Linus Lots of luck ... please pass your crack pipe arounds so the rest of us idiots can see your vision or lack of ... Regards, Andre Hedrick CEO/President, LAD Storage Consulting Group Linux ATA Development Linux Disk Certification Project ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: your mail 2001-12-27 18:09 ` your mail Andre Hedrick @ 2001-12-27 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds 2001-12-27 19:41 ` Andrew Morton 2001-12-28 22:14 ` Martin Dalecki 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Linus Torvalds @ 2001-12-27 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andre Hedrick; +Cc: Keith Owens, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Andre Hedrick wrote: > > Lots of luck ... please pass your crack pipe arounds so the rest of us > idiots can see your vision or lack of ... Heh. I think I must have passed it on to you long ago, and you never gave it back, you sneaky bastard ;) The vision, btw, is to get the request layer in good enough shape that we can dispense with the mid-layer approaches of SCSI/IDE, and block devices turn into _just_ device drivers. For example, ide-scsi is heading for that big scrap-yard in the sky: it's not the SCSI layer that handles special ioctl requests any more, because the upper layers are going to be flexible enough that you can just pass the requests down the regular pipe. (Right now you can see this in block_ioctl.c - while only a few of the ioctl's have been converted, you get the idea. I'm actually surprised that nobody seems to have commented on that part). The final end result of this (I sincerely hope) is that we can get rid of some of the couplings that we've had in the block layer. ide-scsi is just the most obvious strange coupling - things like "sg.c" in general are rather horrible. There's very little _SCSI_ in sg.c - it's really about sending commands down to the block devices. The reason I want to get rid of the couplings is that they end up being big anchors holding down development: you can create a clean driver that isn't dependent on the SCSI layer overheads (and people do, for things like DAC etc), but when you do that you lose _all_ of the support infrastructure, not just the bloat. Which is sad. (And which is why things like ide-scsi exist - IDE didn't really want to be a SCSI driver, but people _did_ want to be able to use some of the generic support routines that the SCSI layer offers. You couldn't just cherry-pick the parts you wanted). The other part of the bio rewrite has been to get rid of another coupling: the coupling between "struct buffer_head" (which is used for a limited kind of memory management by a number of filesystems) and the act of actually just doing IO. I used to think that we could just relegate "struct buffer_head" to _be_ the IO entity, but it turns out to be much easier to just split off the IO part, which is why you now have a separate "bio" structure for the block IO part, and the buffer_head stuff uses that to get the work done. Andre, I know that you're worried about the low-level drivers, but: - I've long since noticed that we cannot communicate, which is why Jens is the block level driver person. You'll have to live with it. - I personally don't think you _can_ make a good driver without having reasonable interfaces, and we didn't have them. For example, the network drivers have improved a lot and do not have _nearly_ the amount of problems block drivers have. That's obviously partly just because it is a simpler problem, but because it was simpler it was also possible to change them. The infrastructure changes in the networking during 2.3.x really did help drivers. And note that the "Jens" and "communication" part is important. If you have patches, please talk to Jens, tell him what the issues, are, and I know I can communicate with him. Linus ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: your mail 2001-12-27 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds @ 2001-12-27 19:41 ` Andrew Morton 2001-12-28 22:14 ` Martin Dalecki 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Andrew Morton @ 2001-12-27 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Andre Hedrick, Keith Owens, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel Linus Torvalds wrote: > > The other part of the bio rewrite has been to get rid of another coupling: > the coupling between "struct buffer_head" (which is used for a limited > kind of memory management by a number of filesystems) and the act of > actually just doing IO. > > I used to think that we could just relegate "struct buffer_head" to _be_ > the IO entity, but it turns out to be much easier to just split off the IO > part, which is why you now have a separate "bio" structure for the block > IO part, and the buffer_head stuff uses that to get the work done. > So... would it be correct to say that there won't be any large changes to the buffer_head concept in 2.5? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: your mail 2001-12-27 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds 2001-12-27 19:41 ` Andrew Morton @ 2001-12-28 22:14 ` Martin Dalecki 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Martin Dalecki @ 2001-12-28 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linus Torvalds; +Cc: Andre Hedrick, Keith Owens, kbuild-devel, linux-kernel Linus Torvalds wrote: >(Right now you can see this in block_ioctl.c - while only a few of the >ioctl's have been converted, you get the idea. I'm actually surprised that >nobody seems to have commented on that part). > That was just too obvious, at least for me... However I don't see why you just don't start killing of constructs like: swtch (ioctrl) BLASH: BLAHHH: BLASHH: BLAASS: BLAH: default: return -ENOVAL; } There are ton' s of them out there in the block drivers.. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-12-28 22:26 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2001-12-07 4:17 Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:30 ` [kbuild-devel] (no subject) Tom Rini 2001-12-07 4:36 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-07 4:41 ` Tom Rini 2001-12-07 11:01 ` Russell King 2001-12-07 11:07 ` Keith Owens 2001-12-07 5:10 ` your mail Linus Torvalds 2001-12-07 5:12 ` [kbuild-devel] " Eric S. Raymond 2001-12-07 8:29 ` Converting the 2.5 kernel to kbuild 2.5 Keith Owens 2001-12-27 18:09 ` your mail Andre Hedrick 2001-12-27 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds 2001-12-27 19:41 ` Andrew Morton 2001-12-28 22:14 ` Martin Dalecki
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