* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) @ 2001-01-15 21:50 Trever Adams 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Trever Adams @ 2001-01-15 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: linux-kernel I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late 2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old backups and was able to restore at least the majority of older stuff. Sorry and good luck. > Hi all, > > I managed to kill my dear files and if anyone can help I'd be very > thankful. The events leading to this were something like: > Happy system with 2.4.0-test9 -> update to 2.4.0 (release) -> works > nicely; no complaints of any kind (no crc errors or dma- disabling) -> > reboot -> play Diablo II for some time (win98) -> restart linux -> > VFS: cannot mount root. > I have two ext2 partitions plus root and one of them is on another disk > (same ide lead, however) and it survived with no errors. > > When I ran e2fsck (1.18) on root partition, in addition to having to > run it many times before succeeding (segfaulted sometimes), nothing was > left in the partition except lost+found with lots of > files. Valid superblock wasn't found at 0, but at 8193. > > I really don't get what would have caused this or how to cure it. I still > have my /home in need of repairing, but I won't be running fsck on it with > this good expectancy-of-recovery (I actually tried once with a backup on > another disk and it resulted two VERY old directoried, everything else was > lost...and found(?)). > > I also updated my machine from VIA MVP3 based K6II to VIA KT133 (with 868B > southbridge - ATA100, that is) based Duron, but linux (2.4.0-test9) worked > fine with both configurations. I think this might be some sort of DMA > problem. > > I read from kernel notes that ac1 fixes root umount handling. Might that > be connected with the symptoms I had? If anyone has any suggestions, > please post them. I would, at least, like to know how could I verify if > the filesystem is really messed (for example, overwritten with something > at the bus at the time) or if it's just some minor issue that confuses > fsck totally. > > -- Heikki Lindholm > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-15 21:50 Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) Trever Adams @ 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 7:01 ` Alan Olsen ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-23 5:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Trever Adams; +Cc: Linux Kernel mailing list On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old >backups and was able to restore at least the majority of >older stuff. > >Sorry and good luck. I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that doesn't initialize something properly. Windows sucks, and I hate it as much (probably more) than the next guy. It's not fair to blame every computer problem on it though unless you KNOW that Windows directly caused the problem. Pick one of the 1000000000 good reasons to say Windows sucks instead... For what it is worth, I have a similar problem where if I boot Windows (to show people what "multicrashing" is), if I boot back into Linux, my network card no longer works (via-rhine). Most definitely a Linux bug. In this case, "via-rhine.o" sucks. ;o) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd offer to change your mind for you, but I don't have a fresh diaper. -- Leah to pro-spammer in news.admin.net-abuse.email - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-23 7:01 ` Alan Olsen 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Alan Olsen @ 2001-01-23 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike A. Harris; +Cc: Trever Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Mike A. Harris wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 > >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late > >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely > >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old > >backups and was able to restore at least the majority of > >older stuff. > > > >Sorry and good luck. > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that > doesn't initialize something properly. I am seeing weird reporting of size problems on a VFAT partition. It has not corrupted anything, but a "df" shows the size to be a large negative number. (It worked when the drive had about 22 gigs full on the 30 gig partition, but went wonky when I deleted everything on that partition.) Drive is a Western Digital 307AA 30.7 gb drive. Kernel is 2.4.0 on a P-III 650. Partition is type "c" (Win95 FAT32 (LBA)). Partition starts at 1 and ends on 3739. 30033486 blocks. /dev/hdb1 30018800 -295147905179350204416 32652912 9% /export1 df version is from fileutils-4.0. (Mandrake package fileutils-4.0-13mdk, which is current.) du reports the correct amount of space used. I can read the drive, but the drive size reported is not correct. Not certain if this is a problem in 2.4.0, df, or something else. Have never seen this problem before. (And I mount vfat partitions frequently.) I have not seen any file corruption on this or the other Linux partition that stays in the drive the few and far between times I run Win 98. (Carmageddon 3 does not run under Linux yet...) alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame." - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 7:01 ` Alan Olsen @ 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 10:32 ` Patrizio Bruno 2001-01-23 18:28 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 10:22 ` Heikki Lindholm 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa 3 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Trever L. Adams @ 2001-01-23 10:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike A. Harris; +Cc: Linux Kernel mailing list Mike A. Harris wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that > doesn't initialize something properly. Well, I boot into Linux, all is fine, rebooted into a different version of Linux for some testing, all is fine (this was an older version, I believe it was 2.2.14 or .15) Try to install ME and run it, seems ok. Go back to Linux, and my drive was fried with Windows files all over it, etc. I know Windows shouldn't touch a Linux partition. But, apparently it did. Or else Linux and/or Fdisk are fried and made a bad partition table. > Windows sucks, and I hate it as much (probably more) than the > next guy. It's not fair to blame every computer problem on it > though unless you KNOW that Windows directly caused the problem. I said what I did, because it seems the evidence said Windows did do it. If it didn't, oops. I have talked with others and they had a similar experience, so I am not alone. > Pick one of the 1000000000 good reasons to say Windows sucks > instead... > > For what it is worth, I have a similar problem where if I boot > Windows (to show people what "multicrashing" is), if I boot back > into Linux, my network card no longer works (via-rhine). Most > definitely a Linux bug. In this case, "via-rhine.o" sucks. > > ;o) Well, this is actually the second time I have had Windows write all over my Linux partition. The first time I think it was not a bug in either, but a bug in hardware. However, I no longer have that hardware as my desktop. Trever - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams @ 2001-01-23 10:32 ` Patrizio Bruno 2001-01-23 14:57 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 18:28 ` Mike A. Harris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Patrizio Bruno @ 2001-01-23 10:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Trever L. Adams; +Cc: Mike A. Harris, Linux Kernel mailing list I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. P. On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Mike A. Harris wrote: > > > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > > is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that > > doesn't initialize something properly. > > Well, I boot into Linux, all is fine, rebooted into a different version > of Linux for some testing, all is fine (this was an older version, I > believe it was 2.2.14 or .15) Try to install ME and run it, seems ok. > Go back to Linux, and my drive was fried with Windows files all over it, > etc. > > I know Windows shouldn't touch a Linux partition. But, apparently it > did. Or else Linux and/or Fdisk are fried and made a bad partition table. > > > Windows sucks, and I hate it as much (probably more) than the > > next guy. It's not fair to blame every computer problem on it > > though unless you KNOW that Windows directly caused the problem. > > I said what I did, because it seems the evidence said Windows did do it. > If it didn't, oops. I have talked with others and they had a similar > experience, so I am not alone. > > > Pick one of the 1000000000 good reasons to say Windows sucks > > instead... > > > > For what it is worth, I have a similar problem where if I boot > > Windows (to show people what "multicrashing" is), if I boot back > > into Linux, my network card no longer works (via-rhine). Most > > definitely a Linux bug. In this case, "via-rhine.o" sucks. > > > > ;o) > > Well, this is actually the second time I have had Windows write all over > my Linux partition. The first time I think it was not a bug in either, > but a bug in hardware. However, I no longer have that hardware as my > desktop. > > Trever > > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > --------------------------------------------------------- Patrizio Bruno DADA spa / Ed-IT Development Staff Borgo degli Albizi 37/r 50122 Firenze Italy tel +39 05520351 fax +39 0552478143 PGP PublicKey available at: http://www.keyserver.net/en/ --------------------------------------------------------- - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 10:32 ` Patrizio Bruno @ 2001-01-23 14:57 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 15:25 ` Richard B. Johnson 2001-01-23 17:42 ` Mike A. Harris 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Trever L. Adams @ 2001-01-23 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Patrizio Bruno; +Cc: Mike A. Harris, Linux Kernel mailing list Patrizio Bruno wrote: > I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR > of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your > installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the > choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where > you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration > I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. > > P. > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: I hate to tell you this, but you couldn't be more wrong. My MBR was fine. Lilo was fine and ran fine. The kernel even booted. The problem was my ext2 partition was scrambled but good (over 4 hours trying to fix it and answer all the questions that fsck threw out). The ext2 drive lost a lot of data and suddenly had windows stuff all over it (yes, just like Mike, I had ttf fonts and other such things). Trever - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 14:57 ` Trever L. Adams @ 2001-01-23 15:25 ` Richard B. Johnson 2001-01-23 11:27 ` Mark I Manning IV 2001-01-23 17:42 ` Mike A. Harris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Richard B. Johnson @ 2001-01-23 15:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Trever L. Adams; +Cc: Patrizio Bruno, Mike A. Harris, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: > Patrizio Bruno wrote: > > > I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR > > of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your > > installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the > > choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where > > you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration > > I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. > > > > P. > > > > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: > > I hate to tell you this, but you couldn't be more wrong. My MBR was > fine. Lilo was fine and ran fine. The kernel even booted. The problem > was my ext2 partition was scrambled but good (over 4 hours trying to fix > it and answer all the questions that fsck threw out). The ext2 drive > lost a lot of data and suddenly had windows stuff all over it (yes, just > like Mike, I had ttf fonts and other such things). > > Trever > Yes, last week I had a similar problem with the 2.4.0 (release) version. I use only SCSI (Buslogic on this machine). The root file-system was overwritten with a repeated directory-name+junk. This was reported to the linux-kernel list. This problem occurred during my automated nightly tape backup. Since the backup operation is mostly a read operation, I suggested that the corruption occurred while updating ATIME. The file system was not recoverable. I keep a week's worth of tapes before they get overwritten so I only lost a day's work and I really didn't do much on that day so I really lost nothing but my temper ;^;). Nobody seems to have discovered the problem yet. It is likely some race produced by those who have been working on finer-ganularity locking. I'm still using the same kernel, although my 'tar' script now does --atime-preserve. I don't know if this really works as expected though... Cheers, Dick Johnson Penguin : Linux version 2.4.0 on an i686 machine (799.53 BogoMips). "Memory is like gasoline. You use it up when you are running. Of course you get it all back when you reboot..."; Actual explanation obtained from the Micro$oft help desk. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 15:25 ` Richard B. Johnson @ 2001-01-23 11:27 ` Mark I Manning IV 2001-01-23 10:53 ` Ben Ford 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Mark I Manning IV @ 2001-01-23 11:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: root, linux-kernel > > > > > I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR > > > of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your > > > installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the > > > choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where > > > you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration > > > I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. Oopts I did this last week (fdisk /mbr doesnt do lilo any good :P) Insert Debian boot cd, boot to install, press Alt f2 Create mountpoint, Mount /dev/hda1, CD to that directory chroot to it, cd into /root and ./.profile (prolly not needed but can be useful sometimes) run lilo. All fixed (except by the time i rebooted my motherboard had commited suicide on me for being so stupid. Im about to go collect the replacement right now :) > > I hate to tell you this, but you couldn't be more wrong. My MBR was > > fine. Lilo was fine and ran fine. The kernel even booted. The problem > > was my ext2 partition was scrambled but good (over 4 hours trying to fix > > it and answer all the questions that fsck threw out). The ext2 drive > > lost a lot of data and suddenly had windows stuff all over it (yes, just > > like Mike, I had ttf fonts and other such things). Argh... Window$, ya gotta love it! > Nobody seems to have discovered the problem yet. It is likely some > race produced by those who have been working on finer-ganularity > locking. If i boot my laptop to windows I have to do a total shutdown befire booting back into windows or else gpm goes all crazy. It occurs to me that maybe OTHER things are going crazy too but are just not doing it as loudly :) I think it would be a good polacy to NOT boot from windows immediatly into Linux without a shutdownn in between (a pain in the ass for sure :) > "Memory is like gasoline. You use it up when you are running. Of > course you get it all back when you reboot..."; Actual explanation > obtained from the Micro$oft help desk. :) - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 11:27 ` Mark I Manning IV @ 2001-01-23 10:53 ` Ben Ford 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ben Ford @ 2001-01-23 10:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark I Manning IV; +Cc: root, linux-kernel Mark I Manning IV wrote: > > > > > > > I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR > > > > of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your > > > > installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the > > > > choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where > > > > you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration > > > > I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. > > Oopts I did this last week (fdisk /mbr doesnt do lilo any good :P) > > Insert Debian boot cd, boot to install, press Alt f2 Create mountpoint, > Mount /dev/hda1, CD to that directory chroot to it, cd into /root and > ./.profile (prolly not needed but can be useful sometimes) run lilo. > All fixed (except by the time i rebooted my motherboard had commited > suicide on me for being so stupid. Im about to go collect the > replacement right now :) Holy cow. Try this. 1. Boot from Slackware CD 2. At boot prompt enter: vmlinuz root=/dev/hda3 (replace with correct device of course) 3. Boot. 4. Run lilo. 5. Reboot if you want to. -b - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 14:57 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 15:25 ` Richard B. Johnson @ 2001-01-23 17:42 ` Mike A. Harris 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-23 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Trever L. Adams; +Cc: Patrizio Bruno, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: >> I think that your linux's partition has not been overwritten, but only the MBR >> of your disk, so you probably just need to reinstall lilo. Insert your >> installation bootdisk into your pc, then skip all the setup stuff, but the >> choose of the partition where you want to install and the source from where >> you want to install, then select just the lilo configuration (bootconfiguration >> I mean), complete that step and reboot your machine, lilo will'be there again. >> >> P. >> >> On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: > >I hate to tell you this, but you couldn't be more wrong. My MBR was >fine. Lilo was fine and ran fine. The kernel even booted. The problem >was my ext2 partition was scrambled but good (over 4 hours trying to fix >it and answer all the questions that fsck threw out). The ext2 drive >lost a lot of data and suddenly had windows stuff all over it (yes, just >like Mike, I had ttf fonts and other such things). Lets get a few points clear.. Are we talking - you already had both linux and WinXX installed, and rebooted from Linux into the existing Windows setup, and next time you booted Windows Linux was fried? Sounds like you might have a partitioning problem where Windows sees the disk geometry one way, and perhaps Linux sees it differently. I can't see at all how Windows could end up putting data on ext2 volumes though without read-write ext2 support in Windows. Are you running the freely available ext2 fs driver in Windows? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs. -- Robert Firth - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 10:32 ` Patrizio Bruno @ 2001-01-23 18:28 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-25 13:43 ` Kjartan Maraas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-23 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Trever L. Adams; +Cc: Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Trever L. Adams wrote: >> I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or >> form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but >> lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose >> everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there >> is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that >> doesn't initialize something properly. > >Well, I boot into Linux, all is fine, rebooted into a different version >of Linux for some testing, all is fine (this was an older version, I >believe it was 2.2.14 or .15) Try to install ME and run it, seems ok. >Go back to Linux, and my drive was fried with Windows files all over it, >etc. Ahh. Now _that_ is different. ;o) In this case, yes Windows sucks. I retract my comment entirely. ;o) At least I was trying to be fair and unbiased, (despite being very biased in favor of Linux by a factor of about 10^99999999999). ;op >I know Windows shouldn't touch a Linux partition. But, apparently it >did. Or else Linux and/or Fdisk are fried and made a bad partition table. Whwnever you install/upgrade any OS and especially M$ ones on a multiboot machine, you should always ensure ahead of time that they will play nicely together, agree on geometry translation schemes, partitioning schemes, etc, and that any option to take over the whole machine is turned off. Windows NT defaults to "fry the whole disk", but I don't know about ME or W2K as they are IMHO just bloat + new pictures, etc.. I know if you have a 8G drive or larger, and install NT4 on it it will fry everything entirely unless you stand on your head and read about 50 MS kb articles. Thankfully, I will _never_ have to encounter this sort of thing again though. ;o) >> Windows sucks, and I hate it as much (probably more) than the >> next guy. It's not fair to blame every computer problem on it >> though unless you KNOW that Windows directly caused the problem. > >I said what I did, because it seems the evidence said Windows did do it. >If it didn't, oops. I have talked with others and they had a similar >experience, so I am not alone. Right, sounds like you are correct. I thought you had Windows installed already, and were merely booting between the two and then lost everything. That is an unlikely scenario to occur though.. Installing WinXY is a different story though. ;o) >> Pick one of the 1000000000 good reasons to say Windows sucks >> instead... >> >> For what it is worth, I have a similar problem where if I boot >> Windows (to show people what "multicrashing" is), if I boot back >> into Linux, my network card no longer works (via-rhine). Most >> definitely a Linux bug. In this case, "via-rhine.o" sucks. >> >> ;o) > >Well, this is actually the second time I have had Windows write all over >my Linux partition. The first time I think it was not a bug in either, >but a bug in hardware. However, I no longer have that hardware as my >desktop. If it occurs frequently, I would double or triple check the BIOS configuration of your drives, as well as the way that Linux sees them. Such a problem should be quite rare if it is all set up right - barring viruses, trojans, and script kiddies. Is it possible that the kernel you're using is messed up, and doesn't umount the disks properly? Perhaps some silent disk corruption issue? Does fdisk show only a single partition the size of your whole disk, or are Linux partitions still in existance. I would wager that if linux partitions show up in the partition table, that there is a good chance Windows didn't screw it up. I won't bank on that though, as Windows can certainly foob things in many ways. ;o) Good luck. TTYL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." - Aldous Huxley - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 18:28 ` Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-25 13:43 ` Kjartan Maraas 2001-01-26 21:40 ` Mike A. Harris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Kjartan Maraas @ 2001-01-25 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike A. Harris; +Cc: Trever L. Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list Den 23 Jan 2001 13:28:38 -0500, skrev Mike A. Harris: > > > Whwnever you install/upgrade any OS and especially M$ ones on a > multiboot machine, you should always ensure ahead of time that > they will play nicely together, agree on geometry translation > schemes, partitioning schemes, etc, and that any option to take > over the whole machine is turned off. Windows NT defaults to > "fry the whole disk", but I don't know about ME or W2K as they > are IMHO just bloat + new pictures, etc.. > > I know if you have a 8G drive or larger, and install NT4 on it it > will fry everything entirely unless you stand on your head and > read about 50 MS kb articles. Thankfully, I will _never_ have to > encounter this sort of thing again though. ;o) > I'm sitting here doing an install of NT4 on a box with a 10 gig drive containing three partitions (two W2K and one ext2). The nice NT4 install asked me nicely which partition I wanted to install on: NTFS 4GB Unknown 1 GB (ext2) NTFS 5GB This doesn't look like "default to fry everything" to me. It's nicer if we stick to the facts... Cheers Kjartan Maraas - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-25 13:43 ` Kjartan Maraas @ 2001-01-26 21:40 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-26 23:12 ` Peter 'Luna' Runestig 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-26 21:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kjartan Maraas; +Cc: Trever L. Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list On 25 Jan 2001, Kjartan Maraas wrote: >> Whwnever you install/upgrade any OS and especially M$ ones on a >> multiboot machine, you should always ensure ahead of time that >> they will play nicely together, agree on geometry translation >> schemes, partitioning schemes, etc, and that any option to take >> over the whole machine is turned off. Windows NT defaults to >> "fry the whole disk", but I don't know about ME or W2K as they >> are IMHO just bloat + new pictures, etc.. >> >> I know if you have a 8G drive or larger, and install NT4 on it it >> will fry everything entirely unless you stand on your head and >> read about 50 MS kb articles. Thankfully, I will _never_ have to >> encounter this sort of thing again though. ;o) >> >I'm sitting here doing an install of NT4 on a box with a 10 gig > >drive containing three partitions (two W2K and one ext2). The nice NT4 >install asked me nicely which partition I wanted to install on: >NTFS 4GB >Unknown 1 GB (ext2) >NTFS 5GB > >This doesn't look like "default to fry everything" to me. It's nicer if >we stick to the facts... Yes, lets do that. Lets stick to some facts: 1) One single person (you) not having a problem does not mean in any way that this is the way it occurs for 100% of the userbase. There are way too many different computer systems in use today, with varying hardware problems, software problems, etc. Making a carte blanche statement which more or less says "it works for me so you don't know what you're talking about" is arrogant and does not help anyone. 2) I've installed systems like this a LOT and _have_ had problems with NT4 on ALL of them that had disks larger than 8G. 3) The solution to the problems I (and numerous others have had) for these NT related problems are acknowledged problems with Microsuck NT, and are dealt with by Microsoft Knowledgebase articles. These knowledgebase articles point out many problems NT has with large disks both during install time as well as after install time, numerous problems NT has with partition sizes and locations, especially on large IDE hard disks. Due to these problems, if you do not follow exact procedures carefully, and have an OS installed on such a disk, you can and most likely _will_ fry all OS's and data when installing Windows NT4 (both WS and SRV). Actually, just so we're being "factual" here, and so this thread doesn't go on to the "oh yeah? lets see page numbers then" stage, I will spend the 10 minutes to cut this thread dead right now for everyone. For your viewing pleasure - the "facts": Afticle Q114841: Windows NT Boot Process and Hard Disk Constraints http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q114/8/41.ASP Article Q119497: Boot Partition Created During Setup Limited to 4 Gigabytes http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q119/4/97.ASP Article Q197667: Installing Windows NT on a Large IDE Hard Disk http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q197/6/67.ASP Article Q224526: Windows NT 4.0 Supports Maximum of 7.8-GB System Partition http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q224/5/26.ASP Fortunately I still had the above links bookmarked so it was painless nor time consuming to educate you. Are there any other facts that you'd like to discuss? Preferably not ones about Microsoft... I hate their damned website. Doesn't work with Mozilla either... (custom build of a CVS snapshot before you try to say "mozilla works for me on their site")... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're interested in computer security, and want to stay on top of the latest security exploits, and other information, visit: http://www.securityfocus.com - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-26 21:40 ` Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-26 23:12 ` Peter 'Luna' Runestig 2001-01-27 1:24 ` Mark van Walraven 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Peter 'Luna' Runestig @ 2001-01-26 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linux Kernel mailing list From: "Mike A. Harris" <mharris@opensourceadvocate.org>: > >> Whwnever you install/upgrade any OS and especially M$ ones on a > >> multiboot machine, you should always ensure ahead of time that > >> they will play nicely together, agree on geometry translation > >> schemes, partitioning schemes, etc, and that any option to take > >> over the whole machine is turned off. Windows NT defaults to > >> "fry the whole disk", but I don't know about ME or W2K as they > >> are IMHO just bloat + new pictures, etc.. In what situation would NT4 default to "fry the whole disk"? I've mixed Linux/DOS/Win98/NT4/Win2000 several ways on various hardware (>8 GB disks), with no problems at all actually. Maybe "one single person having a problem does not mean in any way that this is the way it occurs for 100% of the userbase" ? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Peter 'Luna' Runestig (fd. Altberg), Sweden <peter@runestig.com> PGP Key ID: 0xD07BBE13 Fingerprint: 7B5C 1F48 2997 C061 DE4B 42EA CB99 A35C D07B BE13 AOL Instant Messenger Screenname: PRunestig - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-26 23:12 ` Peter 'Luna' Runestig @ 2001-01-27 1:24 ` Mark van Walraven 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Mark van Walraven @ 2001-01-27 1:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linux Kernel mailing list On Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 12:12:53AM +0100, Peter 'Luna' Runestig wrote: > In what situation would NT4 default to "fry the whole disk"? I've mixed > Linux/DOS/Win98/NT4/Win2000 several ways on various hardware (>8 GB disks), > with no problems at all actually. I've had Windows suddenly using the 'begin' and 'end' (CHS) fields in the partition table entry for a FAT32 partition when it should have been using 'start' and 'length' (LBA) fields. The result was that everything on the FAT32 partition disappeared (according to Windows) and a couple of block groups in an ext2 partition were clobbered. Another time, I found what looked like bits of the page file in the middle of a wrong partition when swapping onto the second disk. Two associates have had ext2 partitions partially overwritten by re-installing Win98. > Maybe "one single person having a problem > does not mean in any way that this is the way it occurs for 100% of the > userbase" ? All the problems in the thread smell like geometry problems to me. I never experienced one myself until I got an evil combination of disk, BIOS and filesystem. Then, ZAP! Regards, Mark. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 7:01 ` Alan Olsen 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams @ 2001-01-23 10:22 ` Heikki Lindholm 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Heikki Lindholm @ 2001-01-23 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike A. Harris; +Cc: Trever Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Mike A. Harris wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 > >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late > >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely > >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old > >backups and was able to restore at least the majority of > >older stuff. > > > >Sorry and good luck. > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > is a problem, it most likely is a kernel bug of some kind that > doesn't initialize something properly. I was the original complainer - and came to the same conclusion: that windows wiped my stuff. I gathered it up from: A. After booting to windows and back to 2.4.0 all was lost and the kernel couldn't even mount / and didn't even try /home, which was wiped, too (used 2.2 debian boot disks to verify that, at the time). B. I rebuilt everything and am using 2.4.0 kernel now without any serious flaws (using VIA 868B UDMA33). And I'm definitely not trying to win 98 again.. C. the wiped partition had TrueType(tm) fonts in lost+found. I can't think of any other reason for that except that they're from windows' swapping process. ... Z. Windows 98 generally doesn't have very good architecture concerning drivers. It looks nice, but is a mess underneath (proved numerous times by trying to upgrade an old windows installation to a new machine). -- hl - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2001-01-23 10:22 ` Heikki Lindholm @ 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa 2001-01-23 18:13 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) Jason Venner 2001-01-23 20:17 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) Mike A. Harris 3 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Ragnar Hojland Espinosa @ 2001-01-23 12:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike A. Harris; +Cc: Trever Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:33:45AM -0500, Mike A. Harris wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 > >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late > >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely > >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there WS Windows might reprogram IDE / drives in some way that, being left in that state, conflict with linux's. .. well, ask Andre, he'll know :) -- ____/| Ragnar Højland Freedom - Linux - OpenGL Fingerprint 94C4B \ o.O| 2F0D27DE025BE2302C =(_)= "Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for 104B78C56 B72F0822 U chaos and madness await thee at its end." - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa @ 2001-01-23 18:13 ` Jason Venner 2001-01-23 18:36 ` J Sloan 2001-01-23 20:17 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) Mike A. Harris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Jason Venner @ 2001-01-23 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Linux Kernel mailing list [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1986 bytes --] Windows 98 and possibly followons doesn't quite honor 'b' type partitions in the extended area of the disk, particularily if you are past the 8gig boundary and the partitions in question are over 2gig. The above numbers are NOT hard boundaries, I have only seen this on 2 computers and those numbers are approximate. Generally, I have to use partition magic to make partitions past that point if I don't want windows to scribble all over my other partitions. This is quite a nightmare, and not all that easy to diagnose or fix. > On Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 12:33:45AM -0500, Mike A. Harris wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Jan 2001, Trever Adams wrote: > > > > >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 > > >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late > > >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely > > >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old > > > > I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or > > form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but > > lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose > > everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > > WS Windows might reprogram IDE / drives in some way that, being left in that > state, conflict with linux's. .. well, ask Andre, he'll know :) > > -- > ____/| Ragnar Højland Freedom - Linux - OpenGL Fingerprint 94C4B > \ o.O| 2F0D27DE025BE2302C > =(_)= "Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for 104B78C56 B72F0822 > U chaos and madness await thee at its end." > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ > - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) 2001-01-23 18:13 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) Jason Venner @ 2001-01-23 18:36 ` J Sloan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: J Sloan @ 2001-01-23 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jason Venner; +Cc: Linux kernel Jason Venner wrote: > Windows 98 and possibly followons doesn't quite honor 'b' type > partitions in the extended area of the disk, particularily if you are > past the 8gig boundary and the partitions in question are over 2gig. > The above numbers are NOT hard boundaries, I have only seen this on 2 > computers and those numbers are approximate. This should be an FAQ - running windows on a system where you have a Linux partition is dangerous, and you run the risk of losing all your data. Any Linux system that contains important data should NOT dual boot with windows. The voice of experience talking... jjs - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa 2001-01-23 18:13 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) Jason Venner @ 2001-01-23 20:17 ` Mike A. Harris 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Mike A. Harris @ 2001-01-23 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ragnar Hojland Espinosa; +Cc: Trever Adams, Linux Kernel mailing list On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Ragnar Hojland Espinosa wrote: >> >I had a similar experience. All I can say is windows 98 >> >and ME seem to have it out for Linux drives running late >> >2.3.x and 2.4.0 test and release. I had windows completely >> >fry my Linux drive and I lost everything. I had some old >> >> I don't see how Windows 9x can be at fault in any way shape or >> form, if you can boot between 2.2.x kernel and 9x no problem, but >> lose your disk if you boot Win98 and then 2.3.x/2.4.x and lose >> everything. Windows does not touch your Linux fs's, so if there > >WS Windows might reprogram IDE / drives in some way that, being left in that >state, conflict with linux's. .. well, ask Andre, he'll know :) I certainly wouldn't say it is impossible. ;o) Definitely anything is possible in machines today, especially where chips do not match chip specs, and OS's do not follow either. ;o) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike A. Harris - Linux advocate - Free Software advocate This message is copyright 2001, all rights reserved. Views expressed are my own, not necessarily shared by my employer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and BSD. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) @ 2001-01-15 13:40 Heikki Lindholm 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Heikki Lindholm @ 2001-01-15 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: linux-kernel Hi all, I managed to kill my dear files and if anyone can help I'd be very thankful. The events leading to this were something like: Happy system with 2.4.0-test9 -> update to 2.4.0 (release) -> works nicely; no complaints of any kind (no crc errors or dma-disabling) -> reboot -> play Diablo II for some time (win98) -> restart linux -> VFS: cannot mount root. I have two ext2 partitions plus root and one of them is on another disk (same ide lead, however) and it survived with no errors. When I ran e2fsck (1.18) on root partition, in addition to having to run it many times before succeeding (segfaulted sometimes), nothing was left in the partition except lost+found with lots of files. Valid superblock wasn't found at 0, but at 8193. I really don't get what would have caused this or how to cure it. I still have my /home in need of repairing, but I won't be running fsck on it with this good expectancy-of-recovery (I actually tried once with a backup on another disk and it resulted two VERY old directoried, everything else was lost...and found(?)). I also updated my machine from VIA MVP3 based K6II to VIA KT133 (with 868B southbridge - ATA100, that is) based Duron, but linux (2.4.0-test9) worked fine with both configurations. I think this might be some sort of DMA problem. I read from kernel notes that ac1 fixes root umount handling. Might that be connected with the symptoms I had? If anyone has any suggestions, please post them. I would, at least, like to know how could I verify if the filesystem is really messed (for example, overwritten with something at the bus at the time) or if it's just some minor issue that confuses fsck totally. -- Heikki Lindholm - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2001-01-27 1:24 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2001-01-15 21:50 Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) Trever Adams 2001-01-23 5:33 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 7:01 ` Alan Olsen 2001-01-23 10:03 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 10:32 ` Patrizio Bruno 2001-01-23 14:57 ` Trever L. Adams 2001-01-23 15:25 ` Richard B. Johnson 2001-01-23 11:27 ` Mark I Manning IV 2001-01-23 10:53 ` Ben Ford 2001-01-23 17:42 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-23 18:28 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-25 13:43 ` Kjartan Maraas 2001-01-26 21:40 ` Mike A. Harris 2001-01-26 23:12 ` Peter 'Luna' Runestig 2001-01-27 1:24 ` Mark van Walraven 2001-01-23 10:22 ` Heikki Lindholm 2001-01-23 12:43 ` Ragnar Hojland Espinosa 2001-01-23 18:13 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) (win98 not honoring partitioning) Jason Venner 2001-01-23 18:36 ` J Sloan 2001-01-23 20:17 ` Total loss with 2.4.0 (release) Mike A. Harris -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2001-01-15 13:40 Heikki Lindholm
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