Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Greg KH]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
> Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
> 
> The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
> later.

Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?

>  296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)

Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
these devices?

Why can't we just have a real driver now?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Kai-Heng Feng]

at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>> The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
>> Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
>>
>> The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
>> later.
>
> Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?

rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.

They plan to add the support in 2020.

>
>> 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
>
> Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
> these devices?

Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is  
better come from kernel.

>
> Why can't we just have a real driver now?

It doesn’t support rtl8821ce yet.

Kai-Heng

>
> thanks,
>
> greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Greg KH]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
> > > Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
> > > 
> > > The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
> > > later.
> > 
> > Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?
> 
> rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
> 
> They plan to add the support in 2020.

Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
full year?

> > > 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
> > 
> > Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
> > these devices?
> 
> Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
> better come from kernel.

That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
drivers, right?  Why not use the ones we already have?

But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
a staging driver?

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Kai-Heng Feng]

at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>> at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>>>> The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
>>>> Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
>>>>
>>>> The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
>>>> later.
>>>
>>> Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?
>>
>> rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
>>
>> They plan to add the support in 2020.
>
> Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
> full year?

“They” refers to Realtek.
It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.

>
>>>> 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
>>>
>>> Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
>>> these devices?
>>
>> Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
>> better come from kernel.
>
> That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
> huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
> at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
> drivers, right?

Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different  
architectures and even different OSes.
That’s why it’s a mess.

> Why not use the ones we already have?

It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of  
#ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.

>
> But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
> a staging driver?

Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.
Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree  
driver, some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how  
to fix the driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial  
to many users, even it’s only for a year.

Kai-Heng

>
> thanks,
>
> greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Larry Finger]

On 5/15/19 8:06 AM, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>>> at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>>>>> The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
>>>>> Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
>>>>>
>>>>> The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
>>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?
>>>
>>> rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
>>>
>>> They plan to add the support in 2020.
>>
>> Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
>> full year?
> 
> “They” refers to Realtek.
> It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.
> 
>>
>>>>> 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
>>>>
>>>> Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
>>>> these devices?
>>>
>>> Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
>>> better come from kernel.
>>
>> That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
>> huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
>> at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
>> drivers, right?
> 
> Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different 
> architectures and even different OSes.
> That’s why it’s a mess.
> 
>> Why not use the ones we already have?
> 
> It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of 
> #ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.
> 
>>
>> But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
>> a staging driver?
> 
> Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.
> Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree driver, 
> some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how to fix the 
> driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial to many users, 
> even it’s only for a year.

Why not solve the older kernel problem the way I do with drivers for many 
Realtek devices by creating a GitHub project with the kernel API changes 
properly handled by ifdef statements? See the lwfinger projects. That solves the 
problem of users without the skills needed to adjust to kernel changes without 
burdening the entire Linux kernel with these bloated drivers. There are no 
reasons that a wifi driver should require 200K lines of code!

Larry

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Greg KH]

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:06:44PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > > > The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
> > > > > Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
> > > > > 
> > > > > The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
> > > > > later.
> > > > 
> > > > Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get merged?
> > > 
> > > rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
> > > 
> > > They plan to add the support in 2020.
> > 
> > Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
> > full year?
> 
> “They” refers to Realtek.
> It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.

Where did they say that?  Any reason their developers are not on this
patch?

> > > > > 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
> > > > 
> > > > Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one of
> > > > these devices?
> > > 
> > > Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
> > > better come from kernel.
> > 
> > That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
> > huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
> > at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
> > drivers, right?
> 
> Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different
> architectures and even different OSes.

Well, they try to, it doesn't always work :(

> That’s why it’s a mess.

Oh we all know why this is a mess.  But they have been saying for
_years_ they would clean up this mess.  So push back, I'm not going to
take another 200k lines for a simple wifi driver, again.

Along those lines, we should probably just delete the other old realtek
drivers that don't seem to be going anywhere from staging as well,
because those are just confusing people.

> > Why not use the ones we already have?
> 
> It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of
> #ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.

That's not what I asked.

I want to know why they can't just add support for their new devices to
one of the many existing realtek drivers we already have.  That is the
simpler way, and the correct way to do this.  We don't do this by adding
200k lines, again.

> > But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
> > a staging driver?
> 
> Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.

Device "goes well" please.  And when in 2020?  And why 2020?  Why not
2022?  2024?

> Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree driver,
> some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how to fix
> the driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial to many
> users, even it’s only for a year.

So who is going to be responsible for "fixing the driver" for all new
kernel api updates?  I'm tired of seeing new developers get lost in the
maze of yet-another realtek wifi driver.  We've been putting up with
this crud for years, and it has not gotten any better if you want to add
another 200k lines for some unknown amount of time with the hope that a
driver might magically show up one day.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Kai-Heng Feng]

at 00:39, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:06:44PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>> at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>>>> at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
>>>>>> The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
>>>>>> Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
>>>>>> later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so long to get  
>>>>> merged?
>>>>
>>>> rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
>>>>
>>>> They plan to add the support in 2020.
>>>
>>> Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
>>> full year?
>>
>> “They” refers to Realtek.
>> It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.
>
> Where did they say that?  Any reason their developers are not on this
> patch?
>
>>>>>> 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for every single one  
>>>>> of
>>>>> these devices?
>>>>
>>>> Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
>>>> better come from kernel.
>>>
>>> That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
>>> huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
>>> at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
>>> drivers, right?
>>
>> Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different
>> architectures and even different OSes.
>
> Well, they try to, it doesn't always work :(
>
>> That’s why it’s a mess.
>
> Oh we all know why this is a mess.  But they have been saying for
> _years_ they would clean up this mess.  So push back, I'm not going to
> take another 200k lines for a simple wifi driver, again.
>
> Along those lines, we should probably just delete the other old realtek
> drivers that don't seem to be going anywhere from staging as well,
> because those are just confusing people.
>
>>> Why not use the ones we already have?
>>
>> It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of
>> #ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.
>
> That's not what I asked.
>
> I want to know why they can't just add support for their new devices to
> one of the many existing realtek drivers we already have.  That is the
> simpler way, and the correct way to do this.  We don't do this by adding
> 200k lines, again.
>
>>> But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
>>> a staging driver?
>>
>> Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.
>
> Device "goes well" please.  And when in 2020?  And why 2020?  Why not
> 2022?  2024?
>
>> Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree  
>> driver,
>> some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how to fix
>> the driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial to  
>> many
>> users, even it’s only for a year.
>
> So who is going to be responsible for "fixing the driver" for all new
> kernel api updates?  I'm tired of seeing new developers get lost in the
> maze of yet-another realtek wifi driver.  We've been putting up with
> this crud for years, and it has not gotten any better if you want to add
> another 200k lines for some unknown amount of time with the hope that a
> driver might magically show up one day.

I have no idea why they haven’t made everything upstream, and I do hope  
they did a better job, so I don’t need to cleanup their driver and send it  
upstream :(

So basically I can’t answer any of your questions. As Larry suggested,  
their driver should be hosted separately and maybe by downstream distro.

Kai-Heng

>
> thanks,
>
> greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Greg KH]

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 01:40:00AM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> at 00:39, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:06:44PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > at 20:33, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:54:58PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > > > at 19:40, Greg KH <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 07:24:01PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > > > > > > The rtl8821ce can be found on many HP and Lenovo laptops.
> > > > > > > Users have been using out-of-tree module for a while,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The new Realtek WiFi driver, rtw88, will support rtl8821ce in 2020 or
> > > > > > > later.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Where is that driver, and why is it going to take so
> > > > > > long to get merged?
> > > > > 
> > > > > rtw88 is in 5.2 now, but it doesn’t support 8821ce yet.
> > > > > 
> > > > > They plan to add the support in 2020.
> > > > 
> > > > Who is "they" and what is needed to support this device and why wait a
> > > > full year?
> > > 
> > > “They” refers to Realtek.
> > > It’s their plan so I can’t really answer that on behalf of Realtek.
> > 
> > Where did they say that?  Any reason their developers are not on this
> > patch?
> > 
> > > > > > > 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Ugh, why do we keep having to add the whole mess for
> > > > > > every single one of
> > > > > > these devices?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Because Realtek devices are unfortunately ubiquitous so the support is
> > > > > better come from kernel.
> > > > 
> > > > That's not the issue here.  The issue is that we keep adding the same
> > > > huge driver files to the kernel tree, over and over, with no real change
> > > > at all.  We have seen almost all of these files in other realtek
> > > > drivers, right?
> > > 
> > > Yes. They use one single driver to support different SoCs, different
> > > architectures and even different OSes.
> > 
> > Well, they try to, it doesn't always work :(
> > 
> > > That’s why it’s a mess.
> > 
> > Oh we all know why this is a mess.  But they have been saying for
> > _years_ they would clean up this mess.  So push back, I'm not going to
> > take another 200k lines for a simple wifi driver, again.
> > 
> > Along those lines, we should probably just delete the other old realtek
> > drivers that don't seem to be going anywhere from staging as well,
> > because those are just confusing people.
> > 
> > > > Why not use the ones we already have?
> > > 
> > > It’s virtually impossible because Realtek’s mega wifi driver uses tons of
> > > #ifdefs, only one chip can be selected to be supported at compile time.
> > 
> > That's not what I asked.
> > 
> > I want to know why they can't just add support for their new devices to
> > one of the many existing realtek drivers we already have.  That is the
> > simpler way, and the correct way to do this.  We don't do this by adding
> > 200k lines, again.
> > 
> > > > But better yet, why not add proper support for this hardware and not use
> > > > a staging driver?
> > > 
> > > Realtek plans to add the support in 2020, if everything goes well.
> > 
> > Device "goes well" please.  And when in 2020?  And why 2020?  Why not
> > 2022?  2024?
> > 
> > > Meanwhile, many users of HP and Lenovo laptops are using out-of-tree
> > > driver,
> > > some of them are stuck to older kernels because they don’t know how to fix
> > > the driver. So I strongly think having this in kernel is beneficial
> > > to many
> > > users, even it’s only for a year.
> > 
> > So who is going to be responsible for "fixing the driver" for all new
> > kernel api updates?  I'm tired of seeing new developers get lost in the
> > maze of yet-another realtek wifi driver.  We've been putting up with
> > this crud for years, and it has not gotten any better if you want to add
> > another 200k lines for some unknown amount of time with the hope that a
> > driver might magically show up one day.
> 
> I have no idea why they haven’t made everything upstream, and I do hope they
> did a better job, so I don’t need to cleanup their driver and send it
> upstream :(
> 
> So basically I can’t answer any of your questions. As Larry suggested, their
> driver should be hosted separately and maybe by downstream distro.

As it sounds like you have talked to these developers (i.e. they told
you 2020), you do have a way to communicate our concerns.  Please do
that, or feel free to send me their contact information and I will be
glad to talk to them about this.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: [PATCH] staging: Add rtl8821ce PCIe WiFi driver

[Joe Perches]

On Wed, 2019-05-15 at 18:39 +0200, Greg KH wrote:
> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:06:44PM +0800, Kai-Heng Feng wrote:
> > 296 files changed, 206166 insertions(+)
> I'm not going to take another 200k lines for a simple wifi driver.

Good.

Realtek _really_ needs to improve the driver software.