From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
To: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Cc: Chase Venters <chase.venters@clientec.com>,
"linux-os \\(Dick Johnson\\)" <linux-os@analogic.com>,
Kyle Moffett <mrmacman_g4@mac.com>, Marc Perkel <marc@perkel.com>,
"Jeff V. Merkey" <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com>,
Patrick McLean <pmclean@cs.ubishops.ca>,
Stephen Hemminger <shemminger@osdl.org>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:57:52 -0800 (PST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0601310931540.7301@g5.osdl.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1138620390.31089.43.camel@localhost.localdomain>
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Alan Cox wrote:
>
> You might also want to ask "if the FSF COPYING text specified the
> program version as you claim then how would you specify versions
> differently". And likewise "How come the FSF itself, author of the
> license, distributes its default COPYING file with code clearly intended
> and marked to be GPL v2 or later".
Alan, you're weasel-wording, and making up arguments that aren't valid.
You can avoid specifying a particular version of the GPL by just saying
"This project is distributed under the GPL" and pointing to the FSF. Not
everybody necessarily even includes the LICENSE file.
Please realize that the kernel is one of the largest open-source projects
in the world, if not _the_ largest. Most projects are much much smaller.
Many projects are very ad-hoc, and not all of them have necessarily been
all that careful with adding LICENSE files etc.
As to your "FSF itself" argument, the code the FSF distributes obviously
_has_ to state "GPL v2 or later" exactly because they want the "or later"
thing to be effective.
Their suggestions very much is to include the GPL license in its entirety
_and_ to say "GPL v2 or later" in the files, exactly because they need to
_expand_ the license from just the one in the license file (ie the "or
later" part is essentially an open-ended dual license).
None of your arguments in any way argue that Linux wouldn't be GPLv2.
> In short your interpretation of the past state of affairs would not
> stand up to scrutiny.
You can claim anything you like. I think you're wrong. But in the
meantime, that doesn't matter. If it ever goes to court, you'll see what a
real judge will claim.
My bet is that my interpretation is the only sane one.
> The COPYING file is mere aggregation - it is a seperately licensed and
> independant work to the program with incompatible conditions.
The fact that the COPYING file has a different copyright really doesn't
matter. It's still part of the release.
It's absolutely not different from having a separate "Release notes" file
which specifies the copyright conditions. That's how Linux-0.01 did it:
the thing was outside the actual main tar-ball, and sent out both as part
of the announcemnt and as a separate file in the same directory on the
ftp-site.
Yes, it may be "mere aggregation", but that has absolutely _zero_ impact
on my argument. It's the only license you have to copy Linux, and it very
much has an EXPLICIT VERSION. Namely version 2.
At no time has Linux ever been distributed without the version of the GPL
that it is distributed under being in any question at all. THAT is my
argument.
And as said - you can argue against it as much as you damn well please. I
simply don't care. I think you are very obviously wrong, but hey, in the
end that doesn't matter either. Take it to a judge. Arguing it to me or to
the public has absolutely zero relevance.
And regardless of what you argue, for the last 5 years there has been the
explicit explanatory note. And you can't claim that people didn't know
about it: if I remember correctly, you yourself sent updates to some of
the files you felt you had copyright on to add the ".. or any later
version" verbiage when I suggested people do so.
So why are you even arguing? It is an UNDENIABLE FACT that a noticeable
portion of the Linux kernel is version-2 only. You'd have to do a lot of
work if you wanted to re-license it - and the burden of proof is on _you_
to do so, not on me. Keeping the old license is the _only_ case that
obviously needs no proof at all, since regardless of circumstances, it's
always safe.
The fact is, the kernel is not licenseable under GPLv3 without tons of
work. Work that I'm not in the least interested in doing, or even helping
with. If you want to start such an effort, I'd suggest:
- spend hours and hours of your time talking to your lawyers, trying to
convince them that your argument has any merit at all. I doubt you'll
be able to do that.
- than start from the state 5 years ago.
Btw, at least in the US, intent actually matters. The fact that I've made
it clear that my _intent_ was always GPLv2 (and I've been very consistent
on this) together with the fact that people have accepted the addendum to
the COPYING file actually _does_ have legal meaning.
Weasel-wording and trying to work around the fact that the version has
always been explicitly mentioned is not a way to make a legal argument.
Yet that's really all your argument boils down to.
I can make very specific arguments for why version 2 ONLY is the specific
license that covers Linux. In contrast you can only make weasel-wording
"but you _could_ misunderstand it to mean xyzzy" kind of noises. That
should tell you something.
Linus
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2006-01-31 17:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 214+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2006-01-20 16:49 GPL V3 and Linux Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 19:11 ` Stephen Hemminger
2006-01-20 19:34 ` Patrick McLean
2006-01-20 18:22 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 18:30 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 19:45 ` Alan Cox
2006-01-25 18:46 ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Marc Perkel
2006-01-25 17:14 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25 17:30 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25 19:24 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-25 19:50 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-25 20:44 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-25 21:20 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-25 22:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-25 23:26 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 17:59 ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 16:28 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-26 18:25 ` Filip Brcic
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.0601261233150.17225@turbotaz.ourhouse>
2006-01-26 16:55 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-26 22:54 ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 2:15 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 2:23 ` Dave Jones
2006-01-27 2:37 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 2:53 ` Dave Jones
2006-01-27 19:50 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 3:40 ` Diego Calleja
2006-01-27 7:34 ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-01-27 8:09 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-27 13:38 ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 19:50 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 20:30 ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 21:12 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 19:30 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-27 15:56 ` Roland Kuhn
2006-01-26 18:52 ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 18:53 ` Diego Calleja
2006-01-26 18:57 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 19:22 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 19:52 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 20:04 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 20:21 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 20:51 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-26 22:28 ` GPL V3 and Linux - V3 adds new restrictions Marc Perkel
[not found] ` <20060127015811.03beb9e5.seanlkml@sympatico.ca>
2006-01-27 6:58 ` sean
2006-01-28 4:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-26 19:33 ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Diego Calleja
2006-01-26 18:57 ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 22:16 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 22:23 ` Al Viro
2006-01-28 1:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 19:45 ` Michael Buesch
2006-01-28 19:04 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-27 10:46 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 13:39 ` Al Viro
2006-01-27 14:00 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 14:18 ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 14:42 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 15:20 ` Al Viro
2006-01-27 15:32 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 14:46 ` Chris Bergeron
2006-01-27 14:47 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-28 1:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 23:23 ` Horst von Brand
2006-01-28 1:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-30 7:00 ` Giacomo A. Catenazzi
2006-01-31 23:18 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-28 4:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 4:57 ` Chris Adams
2006-01-28 20:38 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-29 14:30 ` Matthias Urlichs
2006-01-28 15:38 ` Florian Weimer
2006-01-27 21:33 ` Thomas Horsten
2006-01-28 5:38 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-01-28 8:31 ` Thomas Horsten
2006-01-28 10:37 ` Peter Read
2006-01-30 18:15 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-01-30 19:43 ` Glauber de Oliveira Costa
2006-01-30 22:00 ` Filip Brcic
[not found] ` <5d6222a80601302012v22196faci3ce81320fb534f30@mail.gmail.com>
2006-02-01 15:30 ` Georg C. F. Greve
2006-02-01 16:32 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-01 22:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 23:43 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02 0:18 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02 8:39 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 9:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 9:32 ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 10:30 ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-04 17:45 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-02-02 10:46 ` James Bruce
2006-02-02 11:13 ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 12:31 ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 13:31 ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 16:23 ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 11:50 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02 16:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:40 ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 9:37 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 14:45 ` Gene Heskett
2006-02-02 14:38 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02 16:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:08 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:54 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 18:12 ` Lennart Sorensen
2006-02-02 18:27 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-06 16:11 ` Horst von Brand
2006-02-02 18:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 19:20 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 19:46 ` Mark v Wolher
2006-02-02 19:52 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02 23:07 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 23:52 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-03 8:14 ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 18:13 ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-02-02 18:49 ` Lee Revell
2006-02-02 19:11 ` Christopher Friesen
2006-02-02 19:18 ` Lee Revell
2006-02-05 3:58 ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-05 7:06 ` Zan Lynx
2006-02-06 21:07 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-06 22:38 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-02-07 13:44 ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-07 13:40 ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-03 21:33 ` Ingo Molnar
2006-02-01 16:06 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02 22:02 ` Pavel Machek
2006-02-02 22:24 ` Lee Revell
2006-02-02 23:04 ` Karim Yaghmour
[not found] ` <1138387136.26811.8.camel@localhost>
2006-01-28 2:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 5:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 6:25 ` Al Viro
2006-01-28 23:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-30 11:26 ` Alan Cox
2006-01-31 17:57 ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2006-01-31 17:24 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 19:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 18:48 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 20:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 19:57 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-02-02 19:52 ` Matan Peled
[not found] ` <3e1162e60602021207o5893055fqe8a20c99ff8a19b6@mail.gmail.com>
2006-02-02 20:29 ` Matan Peled
2006-01-31 21:45 ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-31 21:47 ` Stephen Hemminger
2006-01-31 22:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 6:52 ` Gene Heskett
2006-01-31 22:04 ` Rene Herman
2006-01-31 23:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 23:32 ` Paul Jakma
2006-02-01 0:20 ` Paul Jakma
2006-02-01 14:29 ` Rene Herman
2006-02-01 22:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 23:29 ` Rene Herman
2006-02-02 0:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 0:16 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02 1:08 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02 9:50 ` Rene Herman
2006-02-02 6:39 ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-02 6:57 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-02-02 7:11 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-03 3:56 ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03 5:35 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-03 13:31 ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03 3:35 ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03 5:35 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-01 22:46 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02 12:31 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2006-01-31 23:48 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 0:45 ` Alan Cox
2006-01-31 19:55 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-31 19:10 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 20:16 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-31 19:27 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 23:57 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01 10:01 ` Rogier Wolff
2006-02-01 13:59 ` GPL V3 -- PLEA FOR SANITY Theodore Ts'o
2006-01-31 20:32 ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Diego Calleja
2006-01-31 20:43 ` Josh Boyer
2006-02-01 0:06 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01 1:02 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 0:53 ` Kurt Wall
2006-01-21 2:27 ` GPL V3 and Linux Alexander Shishckin
2006-01-21 4:08 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-21 5:56 ` Alexander Shishckin
2006-01-21 18:28 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-21 19:01 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-01-21 20:43 ` Horst von Brand
2006-01-23 22:10 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-24 0:34 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-24 0:52 ` Harald Arnesen
2006-01-24 1:55 ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-01-24 3:08 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-24 9:10 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-24 15:49 ` Alan Cox
2006-01-24 9:37 ` Wartan Hachaturow
2006-01-24 10:23 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-24 10:38 ` Lee Revell
2006-01-24 13:53 ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-24 16:13 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25 1:21 ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-01-25 9:42 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-25 16:02 ` [OT] " Steven Rostedt
2006-01-27 3:10 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-27 9:54 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27 10:13 ` Bas Westerbaan
2006-01-27 10:25 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27 13:29 ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 17:51 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-28 11:38 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27 2:01 ` Rik van Riel
2006-01-28 20:18 ` Graham Murray
2006-01-23 9:09 ` Helge Hafting
2006-01-23 9:52 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-02-02 18:48 GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Shawn Starr
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