WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Roland]

>BTW, WD's tech support has gone silent so chances for an easier solution 
>are not so great.
>
>Tvrtko

I`ve got a real funky response from WD support  today, i`d like to share 
here.
This is just too weird....

After asking if they could give a comment if the problem with the high 
Load_Cycle_Count may be an issue of their drives or an issue of Linux i got:

------
Dear......
The problem is, that we actually don`t use the disks with Linux. I´m sorry 
that i cannot send further information to you.

Sincery yours
<insert support employee name here>
Western Digital Service and Support
------
(translated from german)




So, WD sells enterprise SATA disks, optimizied for 24/7 & Raid array usage, 
but they don`t seem to actually test them with Linux or at least are not 
able to "support" Linux usage.......

Ridicuous!



> List:       linux-kernel
> Subject:    Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux
> From:       "Tvrtko A. Ursulin" <tvrtko () ursulin ! net>
> Date:       2008-04-09 20:18:35
> Message-ID: 200804092118.35501.tvrtko () ursulin ! net
> [Download message RAW]
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> The subject may be a bit misleading since I haven't investigated the whole
> issue under other OS-es (nor do I plan to), but this is how the story 
> goes..
>
> Those fancy new WD GreenPower drives seem to be heavily suffering from the
> rapidly increasing head load/unload problem. And the bad thing is they 
> don't
> respond to 'hdparm -B', which would mean (I think) their power management
> behaviour is solely up to their firmware.
>
> I got one of them (WD5000AACS) recently and to my horror after less than 
> three
> days of being power on this is what I saw:
>
> 9 Power_On_Hours       0x0032 100 100 000 Old_age Always  - 66
> 193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 197 197 000 Old_age  Always  - 10233
>
> At this rate the disk would reach it's design limit for load/unload cycles 
> in
> around 80 days. Not good - so I implemented a lame workaround of keeping 
> disk
> busy every couple of seconds - hopefully that won't kill it sooner that
> unloads would..
>
> I am also currently talking with first line of WD's tech support trying to 
> get
> some data on how exactly those drives manage head unloading, but that may 
> not
> lead anywhere useful.
>
> So in parallel I decided to ask here to see if someone knows something 
> about
> this?
>
> If it matters, I am running vanilla 2.6.24 on that box and sata_sil is 
> driving
> that disk. Otherwise it is a pretty basic Ubuntu 7.10, a mix of ext3 and 
> jfs
> filesystems, all mounted with noatime. More detailed information available 
> on
> request.
>
> Tvrtko
>
>
> 

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Arnd Hannemann]

Roland wrote:
>> BTW, WD's tech support has gone silent so chances for an easier
>> solution are not so great.
>>
>> Tvrtko
>
> I`ve got a real funky response from WD support  today, i`d like to
> share here.
> This is just too weird....
>
> After asking if they could give a comment if the problem with the high
> Load_Cycle_Count may be an issue of their drives or an issue of Linux
> i got:
>
> ------
> Dear......
> The problem is, that we actually don`t use the disks with Linux. I´m
> sorry that i cannot send further information to you.
>
> Sincery yours
> <insert support employee name here>
> Western Digital Service and Support
> ------
> (translated from german)

Well the answer was probably just from a first level support person so
nothing one should get excited about.
Anyway to the high Load_Cycle_Count; if I understood the technology
correctly the WD GreenPower drives are exactly "Green" because they
unload the heads on a plastic ramp (no landing zone!) quite often during
longer idle periods. Thus they can power off the positioning logic and
actuator of the heads. -> safe Power
This also explains why the power usage under seek is comparable with
other "non-green" drives...

<snipped a lot of stuff>
> 193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 197 197 000 Old_age  Always  - 10233
my 1 TB drive has also a relative high value:

193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age  
Always       -       2786


Just my 2 cents,
Arnd
||

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Niels]

On Tuesday 13 May 2008 23:00, Roland wrote:

>>BTW, WD's tech support has gone silent so chances for an easier solution
>>are not so great.
>>
>>Tvrtko
> 
> I`ve got a real funky response from WD support  today, i`d like to share
> here.
> This is just too weird....
> 
> After asking if they could give a comment if the problem with the high
> Load_Cycle_Count may be an issue of their drives or an issue of Linux i
> got:
> 
> ------
> Dear......
> The problem is, that we actually don`t use the disks with Linux. I´m sorry
> that i cannot send further information to you.
> 
> Sincery yours
> <insert support employee name here>
> Western Digital Service and Support
> ------
> (translated from german)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, WD sells enterprise SATA disks, optimizied for 24/7 & Raid array
> usage, but they don`t seem to actually test them with Linux or at least
> are not able to "support" Linux usage.......
> 
> Ridicuous!
> 
[snip rest]

WD has certainly lost me and my company as customers with this attitude.

//Niels

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Tuesday 2008-05-13 23:20, Arnd Hannemann wrote:
>
>Well the answer was probably just from a first level support person so
>nothing one should get excited about.
>Anyway to the high Load_Cycle_Count; if I understood the technology
>correctly the WD GreenPower drives are exactly "Green" because they

I don't find it Green when I have to buy new disks because of
their detrimental parking technique.

>unload the heads on a plastic ramp (no landing zone!) quite often during

ramp or LZ, it's quite a force with which the head is parked.

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Arnd Hannemann]

Jan Engelhardt wrote:
> On Tuesday 2008-05-13 23:20, Arnd Hannemann wrote:
>> Well the answer was probably just from a first level support person so
>> nothing one should get excited about.
>> Anyway to the high Load_Cycle_Count; if I understood the technology
>> correctly the WD GreenPower drives are exactly "Green" because they
> 
> I don't find it Green when I have to buy new disks because of
> their detrimental parking technique.
> 
>> unload the heads on a plastic ramp (no landing zone!) quite often during
> 
> ramp or LZ, it's quite a force with which the head is parked.
> 

Well I'm no expert, but I would say comparing to the normal wear out due
to use (seeking, bearing wear out, vibrations, spin up, bumps) the
factor of a controlled unload/load cycle on a plastic ramp is probably
negligible.

BTW: my hitachi notebook drive, which I believe has a similar
load/unload technology has:
> 193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   057   057   000    Old_age   Always       -       258528/258360

And it didn't fail on me yet...
Of course this is just one data point.

Regards,
Arnd Hannemann

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[linux-os (Dick Johnson)]

On Tue, 13 May 2008, Arnd Hannemann wrote:

> Roland wrote:
>>> BTW, WD's tech support has gone silent so chances for an easier
>>> solution are not so great.
>>>
>>> Tvrtko
>>
>> I`ve got a real funky response from WD support  today, i`d like to
>> share here.
>> This is just too weird....
>>
>> After asking if they could give a comment if the problem with the high
>> Load_Cycle_Count may be an issue of their drives or an issue of Linux
>> i got:
>>
>> ------
>> Dear......
>> The problem is, that we actually don`t use the disks with Linux. I´m
>> sorry that i cannot send further information to you.
>>
>> Sincery yours
>> <insert support employee name here>
>> Western Digital Service and Support
>> ------
>> (translated from german)
>
> Well the answer was probably just from a first level support person so
> nothing one should get excited about.
> Anyway to the high Load_Cycle_Count; if I understood the technology
> correctly the WD GreenPower drives are exactly "Green" because they
> unload the heads on a plastic ramp (no landing zone!) quite often during
> longer idle periods. Thus they can power off the positioning logic and
> actuator of the heads. -> safe Power
> This also explains why the power usage under seek is comparable with
> other "non-green" drives...
>
> <snipped a lot of stuff>
>> 193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0032 197 197 000 Old_age  Always  - 10233
> my 1 TB drive has also a relative high value:
>
> 193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   200   200   000    Old_age
> Always       -       2786
>
>
> Just my 2 cents,
> Arnd
> ||

Practically nobody has any on-line support that means anything
anymore. The person who wrote the response is probably in the
Philippines, makes about $US 3.00 per hour, and is allowed to
pee twice a day. Don't worry. The tiny "bump-proof" drives
cycle on an off many times to conserve power. They also
keep the heads from landing "crashing" by inserting a plastic
wedge between the swing-arms during power down. It's probably
a lot less harmful than letting the heads touch down somewhere.

It's not just the positioning logic that gets powered off. The
discs are spun down, which saves a lot of power.


Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.6.22.1 on an i686 machine (5588.29 BogoMips).
My book : http://www.AbominableFirebug.com/
_

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Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Wednesday 2008-05-14 15:20, linux-os (Dick Johnson) wrote:
>
>It's not just the positioning logic that gets powered off. The
>discs are spun down, which saves a lot of power.

And drives latencies into the skies.
Not to mention that the permanent spinups and downs also affect life.

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[linux-os (Dick Johnson)]

On Wed, 14 May 2008, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

>
> On Wednesday 2008-05-14 15:20, linux-os (Dick Johnson) wrote:
>>
>> It's not just the positioning logic that gets powered off. The
>> discs are spun down, which saves a lot of power.
>
> And drives latencies into the skies.
> Not to mention that the permanent spinups and downs also affect life.
>

Yes. Maybe there is a way to turn if off? That's why we
should be able to get somebody from WD who will answer
a Linux question, instead of the usual on-line "help."

I'm going to poke around and see if I can  find a real
person at WD.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.6.22.1 on an i686 machine (5588.29 BogoMips).
My book : http://www.AbominableFirebug.com/
_


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The information transmitted in this message is confidential and may be privileged.  Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Analogic Corporation immediately - by replying to this message or by sending an email to DeliveryErrors@analogic.com - and destroy all copies of this information, including any attachments, without reading or disclosing them.

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Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[linux-os (Dick Johnson)]

On Wed, 14 May 2008, Richard B. Johnson wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 2008, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Wednesday 2008-05-14 15:20, linux-os (Dick Johnson) wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's not just the positioning logic that gets powered off. The
>>> discs are spun down, which saves a lot of power.
>> 
>> And drives latencies into the skies.
>> Not to mention that the permanent spinups and downs also affect life.
>> 
>
> Yes. Maybe there is a way to turn if off? That's why we
> should be able to get somebody from WD who will answer
> a Linux question, instead of the usual on-line "help."
>
> I'm going to poke around and see if I can  find a real
> person at WD.
>
It took about 3/4 hour to access their web-page and get
a question submitted. It has been my experience that companies
that don't maintain their web-pages, don't really care about
customers. My query was, "How do I turn off Green Power so
I don't have the horrible latencies on virtual memory systems
that have active swapping?"

In the unlikely event that they answer me, I will put the
answer on this list. My guess is that if they do answer
me, the answer will be, "Duhh?" We'll see.


Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.6.22.1 on an i686 machine (5588.29 BogoMips).
My book : http://www.AbominableFirebug.com/
_


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The information transmitted in this message is confidential and may be privileged.  Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Analogic Corporation immediately - by replying to this message or by sending an email to DeliveryErrors@analogic.com - and destroy all copies of this information, including any attachments, without reading or disclosing them.

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Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[linux-os (Dick Johnson)]

On Wed, 14 May 2008, linux-os (Dick Johnson) wrote:

>
> On Wed, 14 May 2008, Richard B. Johnson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 May 2008, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 2008-05-14 15:20, linux-os (Dick Johnson) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's not just the positioning logic that gets powered off. The
>>>> discs are spun down, which saves a lot of power.
>>>
>>> And drives latencies into the skies.
>>> Not to mention that the permanent spinups and downs also affect life.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. Maybe there is a way to turn if off? That's why we
>> should be able to get somebody from WD who will answer
>> a Linux question, instead of the usual on-line "help."
>>
>> I'm going to poke around and see if I can  find a real
>> person at WD.
>>
> It took about 3/4 hour to access their web-page and get
> a question submitted. It has been my experience that companies
> that don't maintain their web-pages, don't really care about
> customers. My query was, "How do I turn off Green Power so
> I don't have the horrible latencies on virtual memory systems
> that have active swapping?"
>
> In the unlikely event that they answer me, I will put the
> answer on this list. My guess is that if they do answer
> me, the answer will be, "Duhh?" We'll see.
>

The only answer I got was the "canned" answer about
contacting your hardware and software vendor. There
don't seem to be any humans employed there, anymore.
That's unfortunate because Lake Forest, California is
a nice place.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson
Penguin : Linux version 2.6.22.1 on an i686 machine (5588.29 BogoMips).
My book : http://www.AbominableFirebug.com/
_


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Thank you.

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Pádraig Brady]

I wrote a few notes about load cycles here:
http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/hard_disk_reliability/

It's bad that the WD GreenPower doesn't support
`hdparm -B` setting its parameters, but I found I
didn't need to tweak these anyway.

I just got the distro to write less often to the drive
with the (rel)atime mount options. With that I got an
acceptable load cycle rate.

Pádraig.

Re: WD doesn`t use disks with Linux - was Re: Re:Western Digital GreenPower drives and Linux

[Jan Engelhardt]

On Friday 2008-05-16 11:35, Pádraig Brady wrote:
>I wrote a few notes about load cycles here:
>http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/hard_disk_reliability/
>
>It's bad that the WD GreenPower doesn't support
>`hdparm -B` setting its parameters, but I found I
>didn't need to tweak these anyway.
>
>I just got the distro to write less often to the drive
>with the (rel)atime mount options. With that I got an
>acceptable load cycle rate.

The problem is not how often Linux wakes the head up due to
writes of any sort, but how often the head decides to go
down without our consent.