From: "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" <dgilbert@redhat.com>
To: Kevin Wolf <kwolf@redhat.com>
Cc: "Peter Maydell" <peter.maydell@linaro.org>,
"Daniel P. Berrangé" <berrange@redhat.com>,
"Denis V. Lunev" <den@virtuozzo.com>,
"Cleber Rosa" <cleber@redhat.com>,
"Stefan Hajnoczi" <stefanha@gmail.com>,
"Markus Armbruster" <armbru@redhat.com>,
qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
"Marc-André Lureau" <marcandre.lureau@redhat.com>,
"Paolo Bonzini" <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
"Dominik Csapak" <d.csapak@proxmox.com>,
"John Snow" <jsnow@redhat.com>,
"Eduardo Habkost" <ehabkost@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy?
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 18:26:39 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200206182639.GL3655@work-vm> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200206142143.GA4926@linux.fritz.box>
* Kevin Wolf (kwolf@redhat.com) wrote:
> Am 06.02.2020 um 10:40 hat Markus Armbruster geschrieben:
> > >> On 2/5/20 8:09 AM, Kevin Wolf wrote:
> > >> > Am 28.01.2020 um 11:59 hat Kevin Wolf geschrieben:
> > >> >>>> The other part that it needs to solve is how to be available by default
> > >> >>>> without specifying anything on the command line. Basically, if I press
> > >> >>>> Ctrl-Alt-2, I want to get to a monitor shell. If that shell is
> > >> >>>> implemented internally or by an external Python process, I don't mind.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> That is a harder part. (I rarely use Ctrl-Alt-2 actually; I mostly
> > >> >>> use HMP on stdin).
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I don't think it would be that hard, actually.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If you have a -qmp-shell option that takes a chardev and defaults to vc,
> > >> >> you've solved the part with both stdio and Ctrl-Alt-2. Now all you need
> > >> >> to do is launch the Python child process, pass it a pair of pipes for
> > >> >> communication and forward everything between the pipes and the chardev.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> (That's the theory anyway.)
> > >> >
> > >> > If someone is interested, I did a quick proof-of-concept hack:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://repo.or.cz/qemu/kevin.git/shortlog/refs/heads/qmp-shell
> > >> >
> > >> > It doesn't clean up anything properly (including the qmp-shell processes
> > >> > it starts), but it spawns a usable qmp-shell on a user-specified
> > >> > character device. stdio seems to work, though without readline
> > >> > functionality (I suppose I still have line-buffering somewhere), vc
> > >> > doesn't really work at all yet.
> > >> >
> > >> > Try it out like this:
> > >> >
> > >> > $ ./qemu-storage-daemon --chardev stdio,id=m --monitor m,mode=qmp-shell
> > >> > monitor_qmp_event: 1
> > >> > Welcome to the QMP low-level shell!
> > >> > Connected to QEMU 4.2.50
> > >> >
> > >> > (QEMU) query-version
> > >> > {"return": {"qemu": {"micro": 50, "major": 4, "minor": 2}, "package": "v4.2.0-1188-gd95a3885a9"}}
> > >> > (QEMU) quit
> > >> >
> > >> > (Or use x86_64-softmmu/qemu-system-x86_64, but it's based on the
> > >> > refactorings in the storage daemon branch, so why not try both at once?)
> > >> >
> > >> > Polishing this to make it mergable would still require substantial work,
> > >> > so at the moment I'm not planning to do this. But if someone wants to
> > >> > pick it up, feel free (just let us know).
> > >> >
> > >> > Hm, in fact... A qmp-shell GSoC project?
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> That would be great. I worry that we should have a clear vision for the
> > >> syntax before we give this project to an intern, though. With a clear
> > >> vision and an outline for deliverables, it's an incredibly appropriate
> > >> project.
> > >>
> > >> Some things I think we want to define before we start:
> > >>
> > >> 1. What are we trying to achieve with a standalone shell?
> >
> > Projects without a clear goal rarely succeed. Success within three
> > months is even rarer.
> >
> > >> 2. What syntax should it use?
> >
> > Leaving that to a GSoC student amounts to setting up for failure.
>
> I think this subthread shows that we actually have many separate
> projects that people wish to have someone work on. Each of them is
> probably a bit too small for a whole GSoC, but all of them together are
> probably too much. So I'll guess the student would pick maybe two of
> them, and if time is left at the end, more can be added as a bonus.
>
> 1. Something like --monitor mode=qmp-shell that just spawns an external
> Python script and passes it a QMP socket. This is the fundamental
> building block for having any kind of external monitor script
> actually integrated in QEMU, so I think just running the existing
> qmp-shell this way (with proper support for at least stdio and vc
> chardevs) would make sense as a first milestone.
I was originally going to suggest that should be sugar for a
-chardev filter that takes an in/out chardev - but I don't know how
you'd handle tty stuff like formatting and tab completion etc.
> 2. Rewriting qmp-shell to use a better syntax for nested data
> structures. This would have to be defined before the project starts.
>
> 3. Improving qmp-shell UI-wise, e.g. by having better autocompletion,
> support for counting brackets, or whatever else was mentioned. We
> have a few ideas, and there's room for the student to add their own
> ideas, too.
>
> 4. Something HMP-like. This isn't QMP any more, so it could as well be a
> separate script (hmp-shell?). But it could also be integrated in
> qmp-shell in the form of additional commands that are implemented
> client-side. Or maybe have a single shell, but have a QMP mode and an
> HMP mode and the user can switch between these modes.
>
> The syntax for the HMP shell/mode could be the same or different from
> the QMP syntax. This would have to be defined beforehand, too.
separate script sharing the qmp interface code?
Dave
> 5. Probably more that I just forgot now.
>
> Suggesting the exact goals is part of the student application process,
> but for fundamental things like the syntax we should probably already
> know what we want.
>
> > >> I think those are the hardest parts.
> > >>
> > >> Below, some musings:
> > >>
> > >> - An integrated QMP shell would be a great usability boost to users of
> > >> bare QEMU.
> > >>
> > >> - It is undesirable in general to support two interfaces. Feature
> > >> disparity is a problem, as is needing to document and test two separate
> > >> interfaces. The quality disparity between the two is also an issue.
> > >>
> > >> - Offering HMP via the GTK interface but not QMP is a discoverability
> > >> problem. Unfamiliar users might assume that HMP is our flagship
> > >> interface. It is not.
> > >>
> > >> - We are unlikely to re-expand HMP to cover everything QMP does; writing
> > >> a QMP shell that makes QMP easy to interface with is a better solution
> > >> for removing redundancy and complexity.
>
> I'm not entirely convinced of this because QMP is often too low-level to
> actually address the practical high-level needs of users.
>
> But these HMP-ish things are probably easier to maintain as scripts
> outside of the QEMU binary, so I think some kind of "QMP with
> extensions" for human could be the solution.
>
> Once it's an external script, it will also be easy to exchange the shell
> for another one depending on user preference, or to hack in whatever
> functionality they are missing.
>
> > >> - I suspect that the target audience for users of naked QEMU are:
> > >> - QEMU developers
> > >> - Upper-layer developers (RHV, oVirt, KubeVirt, libvirt, kata, et al)
> > >> researching, testing, and debugging integration.
> > >> - Devops professionals testing, implementing and debugging
> > >> configuration & infrastructure
> > >> - Security/infosec researchers
> > >> - Embedded platform developers
> > >> - Academic researchers
>
> Maybe kernel developers should be mentioned separately, but yes, this
> list looks plausible to me.
>
> > >> So please correct me if I am off the mark;
> > >>
> > >> Design Goals:
> > >> - The removal of HMP
> > >> - An easy-to-use interface that remains reasonably "close" to the
> > >> machine API such that it provides a smooth transition to scripting QEMU.
> > >> - Integration with our GTK interface for discoverability and convenience
>
> As I listed above, I think these are actually three separate projects,
> rather than goals for a single big projects.
>
> > >> Syntax:
> > >> - TBD? Do we agree that the current syntax in qmp-shell is "bad" and
> > >> should be replaced? If yes, what should it look like?
> > >
> > > I believe it should be a python shell with added commands.
> > >
> > > Simple things should be simple.
> > > e.g. adding a disk from a local file should be trivial.
> > >
> > > Complex things can be complex - but it would be better if they were
> > > simple.
> > >
> > > It's OK if the worst case of a blockdev is a bit hairy, but
> > > watch out for cases where the hairyness creeps in unnecessarily.
> >
> > Designing interfaces to complex machinery is hard. Experience tells
> > that we do okay when we focus on the building blocks first. That's
> > -blockdev. When we start with trying to make simple things simple, we
> > end in swamps. That's -drive.
> >
> > Focus on building blocks is of course no excuse for unnecessary
> > hairiness.
> >
> > It's also no reason not to build more convenient things on top of the
> > building blocks. I doubt they should go into QMP, though.
>
> Right, they should be implemented in that external script, which would
> use the lower-level QMP building blocks to provide the functionality. I
> also think it's a good idea to keep QMP accessible for more exotic use
> cases when the simple thing just doesn't cut it any more.
>
> > > If the user screwsup, it should give an error that prompts the user
> > > to the parameter they got wrong.
> > >
> > > Output from commands should normally be pretty formatted (with an option
> > > to display raw json for those needing it).
> > > e.g. that 'query-version' should give either just the package
> > > version (as info version currently does) or:
> > > 4.2.50 Package: v4.2.0-1188-gd95a3885a9
> > >
> > > We shouldn't lose any HMP commands that some people find useful
> > > Ditching HMP isn't an option until we've got almost all of it
> > > covered.
> >
> > In particular, we currently use HMP for debugging and monitoring
> > purposes, where we don't need or want QMP's rigor, neither its rigorous
> > interface stability, nor its structured I/O. We want the "whipuptitude"
> > we get from monitor_printf(). This is actually a point David has made
> > several times.
> >
> > To have a qmp-shell replace HMP, I think it needs to be able to
> >
> > * Go beyond 1:1
> >
> > We tried a 1:1 mapping between HMP and QMP commands, and it didn't
> > work out. HMP's replacement should let us build convenient commands
> > from QMP building blocks.
> >
> > We tried a 1:1 mapping between HMP and QMP command arguments, guided
> > by @args_type. Worked out for simple cases, but was too constricting.
>
> We need to go beyond 1:1, but we probably want to be able to offer 1:1
> as a subset of commands accepted in that shell.
>
> Offering only 1:1 in a good way might already be a step forward.
>
> > * Preserve "whipuptitude" [David]
> >
> > I figure that means allowing some in QMP. Without compromising its
> > core mission, of course.
>
> As long as we confine it to x- commands, I think this is okay.
>
> > * As discoverable as HMP is now [Kevin]
> >
> > * Help, completion and such at least on par with what HMP provides now
>
> Will we want to add new annotations in the schema for this?
>
> For example, HMP has completion support for block device names. In the
> QAPI schema, these are simply 'str'. We could bake the knowledge that
> in command 'foo' the parameter 'bar' is a block device name, but that
> would be a hack and would probably rarely be consistent with what QEMU
> actually does. It's really something that schema introspection should be
> able to tell us.
>
> Kevin
--
Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilbert@redhat.com / Manchester, UK
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-02-06 18:28 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 183+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-12-20 16:13 Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-20 21:07 ` Richard W.M. Jones
2020-01-02 11:26 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-21 9:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-23 15:04 ` Michal Prívozník
2020-01-07 9:36 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 10:55 ` Michal Privoznik
2020-01-07 12:57 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 17:53 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-12-24 13:41 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-22 22:28 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:19 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 17:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:01 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 21:07 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 7:59 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-24 14:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-24 18:23 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:30 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:48 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:52 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-25 10:18 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:18 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 12:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 11:56 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 12:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 20:11 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 22:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-28 0:37 ` John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-28 10:39 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 15:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:25 ` Eric Blake
2020-01-28 10:28 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 12:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 12:54 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 13:45 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-31 6:50 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:48 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 8:09 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 20:07 ` Andrea Bolognani
2020-02-04 9:58 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:27 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-02 9:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-02 10:44 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 6:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 20:12 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 20:34 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 8:35 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-27 12:13 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 16:18 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-24 9:50 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-25 11:52 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 10:05 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 8:25 ` Tooling to help humans use JSON (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 9:06 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 14:35 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 20:29 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-28 10:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 13:09 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 19:09 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? (Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) John Snow
2020-02-05 19:49 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-06 9:40 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 10:09 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 12:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 12:15 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 18:02 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 21:03 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:17 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 14:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:26 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert [this message]
2020-02-07 10:49 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-07 21:23 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 11:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-10 12:26 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:18 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 7:47 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:31 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-08 7:34 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:56 ` John Snow
2020-02-07 20:56 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 20:59 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 19:21 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 22:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-25 11:55 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-02 14:47 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-16 11:03 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-20 9:55 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-20 13:57 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-25 11:41 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:41 ` John Snow
2020-01-02 15:05 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-13 13:44 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-24 13:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 14:22 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-22 22:42 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:21 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 18:13 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:12 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 15:10 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-07 17:11 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 10:43 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-08 11:40 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 13:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-14 13:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-14 17:31 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 9:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 12:15 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 12:19 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-15 14:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-30 21:09 ` Improving QOM documentation [Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications] Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 6:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:46 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:37 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-31 16:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 9:50 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 10:35 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-31 11:02 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:22 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 17:23 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:56 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 9:54 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 15:21 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-04 8:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 16:39 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-20 10:08 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 5:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 11:32 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 12:03 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 13:36 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 14:36 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-21 15:01 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 15:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 16:21 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 5:16 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged (was: Integrating QOM into QAPI) Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:53 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged Eric Blake
2020-02-10 11:26 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 16:12 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 10:50 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Alex Bennée
2020-01-22 12:24 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-22 12:42 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-22 13:28 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 13:32 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-23 7:37 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 18:32 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 4:44 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-25 9:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 21:25 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-26 8:09 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 9:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-26 16:47 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 15:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-28 8:00 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 10:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-29 12:42 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:35 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-15 12:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 17:18 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 9:30 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-13 16:30 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-04 15:54 ` Summary of " Markus Armbruster
2020-02-05 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 10:56 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-10 11:01 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:08 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-10 11:29 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:04 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:43 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-12 13:54 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-12 14:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
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