From: Markus Armbruster <armbru@redhat.com>
To: "Daniel P. Berrangé" <berrange@redhat.com>
Cc: "Kevin Wolf" <kwolf@redhat.com>,
"Peter Maydell" <peter.maydell@linaro.org>,
"Denis V. Lunev" <den@virtuozzo.com>,
"Cleber Rosa" <cleber@redhat.com>,
"Stefan Hajnoczi" <stefanha@gmail.com>,
qemu-devel <qemu-devel@nongnu.org>,
"Marc-André Lureau" <marcandre.lureau@redhat.com>,
"Paolo Bonzini" <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
"Dominik Csapak" <d.csapak@proxmox.com>,
"John Snow" <jsnow@redhat.com>,
"Eduardo Habkost" <ehabkost@redhat.com>
Subject: Tooling to help humans use JSON (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:25:35 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87zhe9s3uo.fsf_-_@dusky.pond.sub.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200124095027.GA824327@redhat.com> ("Daniel P. =?utf-8?Q?Be?= =?utf-8?Q?rrang=C3=A9=22's?= message of "Fri, 24 Jan 2020 09:50:27 +0000")
Daniel P. Berrangé <berrange@redhat.com> writes:
> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 04:07:09PM -0500, John Snow wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 1/23/20 2:01 PM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
[...]
>> Well, sure. The context of this email was qmp-shell though, which is
>> meant to help facilitate the entry of JSON commands so that you *can*
>> indeed just forego the CLI/HMP entirely.
>>
>> If you are of the opinion that every user of QEMU should be copy/pasting
>> JSON straight into a socket and we should delete qmp-shell, that's
>> certainly a fine opinion.
>
> I think part of the pain of qmp-shell comes from the very fact that
> it is trying to be an interactive shell. This points people towards
> interactively typing in the commands, which is horrific when you get
> anywhere near the JSON, or even dot-notation traditional commands.
>
> If it was just a qmp-client that was single shot, we'd encourage
> people to create the JSON in a sensible way - vim/emacs/whatever.
Tooling can help with typing JSON. Mature tooling for editing JSON
files exists. I'm not aware of such tooling for interactive use of
JSON. It certainly could be made. qmp-shell tries to help by
"improving" the JSON syntax, half-heartedly. I doubt that's a good
idea.
Kubernetes went the "put complex configuration into files, use the
mature tooling for editing files" route. I think we can call that a
success.
The fact that JSON is not meant to serve as configuration file format /
command language for human users bears repeating. It's a data
interchange format.
Kubernetes supplemented JSON (adequate for machines) with YAML (more
pleasant for humans, I guess). I'm no friend of YAML myself (too much
syntax, not enough types), but once again, I think we can call that a
success, at least for Kubernetes.
> Bash/dash/zsh/$whatever is their interactive shell, with massively
> more features than qmp-shell. You have command history, autocomplete,
> conditional and looping constructs, and everything a normal shell
> offers.
>
> The only strong reason for qmp-shell to be interactive would be if
> the initial protoocl handshake was too slow. I can't see that being
> a problem with QMP.
Me neither.
The connection overhead may matter for non-interactive uses. These are
better off without a middleman.
[...]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-01-27 8:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 183+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-12-20 16:13 Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-20 21:07 ` Richard W.M. Jones
2020-01-02 11:26 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2019-12-21 9:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-23 15:04 ` Michal Prívozník
2020-01-07 9:36 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 10:55 ` Michal Privoznik
2020-01-07 12:57 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-07 17:53 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2019-12-24 13:41 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-22 22:28 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:19 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 17:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:01 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 21:07 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 7:59 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-24 14:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-24 18:23 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:30 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:48 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 18:52 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 18:58 ` John Snow
2020-01-25 10:18 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:18 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 12:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 11:56 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 12:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 20:11 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 22:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-28 0:37 ` John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-28 10:39 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 15:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:25 ` Eric Blake
2020-01-28 10:28 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 12:36 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 12:54 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-28 13:45 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-31 6:50 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:48 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 8:09 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 20:07 ` Andrea Bolognani
2020-02-04 9:58 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 12:27 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-02 9:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-02 10:44 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 6:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:48 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 20:12 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-24 20:34 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 8:35 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-27 12:13 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 16:18 ` Gerd Hoffmann
2020-01-24 9:50 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-25 11:52 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 10:05 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 8:25 ` Markus Armbruster [this message]
2020-01-27 9:06 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-27 10:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-27 14:35 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-27 20:29 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-28 10:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 13:09 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-05 19:09 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? (Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) John Snow
2020-02-05 19:49 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-06 9:40 ` qmp-shell for GSoC/Outreachy? Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 10:09 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 12:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 12:15 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-06 18:02 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 21:03 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:17 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-06 14:21 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:26 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 10:49 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-07 21:23 ` John Snow
2020-02-08 7:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 11:59 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-10 12:26 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-02-06 18:18 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-02-07 7:47 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:31 ` Eric Blake
2020-02-08 7:34 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:56 ` John Snow
2020-02-07 20:56 ` John Snow
2020-01-27 20:59 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications John Snow
2020-01-28 10:16 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 19:21 ` John Snow
2020-01-24 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 22:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-25 11:55 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-02 14:47 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-16 11:03 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-20 9:55 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-20 13:57 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-25 11:41 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:41 ` John Snow
2020-01-02 15:05 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-13 13:44 ` Markus Armbruster
2019-12-24 13:00 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 14:22 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-22 22:42 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 7:21 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-23 10:27 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-23 18:13 ` John Snow
2020-01-23 19:12 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-02 15:10 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2020-01-07 17:11 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 10:43 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-08 11:40 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-08 13:38 ` Kevin Wolf
2020-01-14 13:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-14 17:31 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:20 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 9:34 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 12:15 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-15 12:19 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-15 14:02 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-30 21:09 ` Improving QOM documentation [Was: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications] Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 6:11 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 7:46 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:37 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-31 16:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 9:50 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 10:35 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-31 11:02 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-31 15:22 ` Kashyap Chamarthy
2020-01-31 17:23 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 8:56 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-03 9:54 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-03 15:21 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-04 8:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-31 16:39 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-20 10:08 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 5:42 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 11:32 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-01-21 12:03 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 13:36 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI (was: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications) Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 14:36 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-21 15:01 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Markus Armbruster
2020-01-21 15:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-21 16:21 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 5:16 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged (was: Integrating QOM into QAPI) Markus Armbruster
2020-02-07 21:53 ` Getting whole-tree patches reviewed and merged Eric Blake
2020-02-10 11:26 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:04 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 16:12 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 10:50 ` Integrating QOM into QAPI Alex Bennée
2020-01-22 12:24 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-22 12:42 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-22 13:28 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-22 13:32 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-23 7:37 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-24 18:32 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 4:44 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-25 9:28 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-25 21:25 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-26 8:09 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 9:11 ` Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-26 16:47 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-26 15:04 ` Peter Maydell
2020-01-27 19:05 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-28 8:00 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-28 10:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-01-29 12:42 ` Christophe de Dinechin
2020-01-15 9:35 ` Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications Marc-André Lureau
2020-01-15 12:25 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-25 17:18 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-01-27 9:30 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-01-13 16:30 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-04 15:54 ` Summary of " Markus Armbruster
2020-02-05 6:38 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-10 10:56 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-10 11:01 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:08 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2020-02-10 11:29 ` Peter Maydell
2020-02-10 11:04 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-02-10 16:43 ` Markus Armbruster
2020-02-12 13:54 ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-02-12 14:03 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
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