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From: "wangyanan (Y)" <wangyanan55@huawei.com>
To: Andrew Jones <drjones@redhat.com>, Eduardo Habkost <ehabkost@redhat.com>
Cc: "Barry Song" <song.bao.hua@hisilicon.com>,
	"Peter Maydell" <peter.maydell@linaro.org>,
	"Daniel P. Berrangé" <berrange@redhat.com>,
	"Paolo Bonzini" <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
	"Michael S . Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>,
	qemu-devel@nongnu.org, "Shannon Zhao" <shannon.zhaosl@gmail.com>,
	"Igor Mammedov" <imammedo@redhat.com>,
	"Alistair Francis" <alistair.francis@wdc.com>,
	prime.zeng@hisilicon.com, yangyicong@huawei.com,
	yuzenghui@huawei.com, wanghaibin.wang@huawei.com,
	"David Gibson" <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v4 0/7] hw/arm/virt: Introduce cpu topology support
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2021 18:48:11 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5c8c0f85-4d4f-61db-b1e8-adaae2b78106@huawei.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210628085805.5y7bxvqprx75hwi4@gator>

On 2021/6/28 16:58, Andrew Jones wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 28, 2021 at 04:43:05PM +0800, wangyanan (Y) wrote:
>> Hi,
>> On 2021/6/23 1:39, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 07:29:34PM +0200, Andrew Jones wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 06:14:25PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 05:40:13PM +0200, Igor Mammedov wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:29:15 +0200
>>>>>> Andrew Jones <drjones@redhat.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 03:10:57PM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 10:04:52PM +0800, wangyanan (Y) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>>>> On 2021/6/22 20:41, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 08:31:22PM +0800, wangyanan (Y) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021/6/22 19:46, Andrew Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 11:18:09AM +0100, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 05:34:06PM +0800, Yanan Wang wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is v4 of the series [1] that I posted to introduce support for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generating cpu topology descriptions to guest. Comments are welcome!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Description:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once the view of an accurate virtual cpu topology is provided to guest,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a well-designed vCPU pinning to the pCPU we may get a huge benefit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e.g., the scheduling performance improvement. See Dario Faggioli's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research and the related performance tests in [2] for reference. So here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we go, this patch series introduces cpu topology support for ARM platform.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this series, instead of quietly enforcing the support for the latest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine type, a new parameter "expose=on|off" in -smp command line is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduced to leave QEMU users a choice to decide whether to enable the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature or not. This will allow the feature to work on different machine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> types and also ideally compat with already in-use -smp command lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also we make much stricter requirement for the topology configuration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with "expose=on".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Seeing this 'expose=on' parameter feels to me like we're adding a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "make-it-work=yes" parameter. IMHO this is just something that should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be done by default for the current machine type version and beyond.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see the need for a parameter to turnthis on, especially since
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is being made architecture specific.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yanan, we never discussed an "expose" parameter in the previous versions
>>>>>>>>>>>> of this series. We discussed a "strict" parameter though, which would
>>>>>>>>>>>> allow existing command lines to "work" using assumptions of what the user
>>>>>>>>>>>> meant and strict=on users to get what they mean or an error saying that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they asked for something that won't work or would require unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>> assumptions. Why was this changed to an "expose" parameter?
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we indeed discuss a new "strict" parameter but not a "expose" in v2 [1]
>>>>>>>>>>> of this series.
>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://patchwork.kernel.org/project/qemu-devel/patch/20210413080745.33004-6-wangyanan55@huawei.com/
>>>>>>>>>>> And in the discussion, we hoped things would work like below with "strict"
>>>>>>>>>>> parameter:
>>>>>>>>>>> Users who want to describe cpu topology should provide cmdline like
>>>>>>>>>>> -smp strict=on,cpus=4,sockets=2,cores=2,threads=1
>>>>>>>>>>> and in this case we require an more accurate -smp configuration and
>>>>>>>>>>> then generate the cpu topology description through ACPI/DT.
>>>>>>>>>>> While without a strict description, no cpu topology description would
>>>>>>>>>>> be generated, so they get nothing through ACPI/DT.
>>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the "strict" parameter actually serves as a knob to
>>>>>>>>>>> turn on/off the exposure of topology, and this is the reason I changed
>>>>>>>>>>> the name.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the use of 'strict=on' is no better than expose=on IMHO.
>>>>>>>>>> If I give QEMU a cli
>>>>>>>>>>      -smp cpus=4,sockets=2,cores=2,threads=1
>>>>>>>>>> then I expect that topology to be exposed to the guest. I shouldn't
>>>>>>>>>> have to add extra flags to make that happen.
>>>>>>>>>> Looking at the thread, it seems the concern was around the fact that
>>>>>>>>>> the settings were not honoured historically and thus the CLI values
>>>>>>>>>> could be garbage. ie  -smp cpus=4,sockets=8,cores=3,thread=9
>>>>>>>>> This "-smp cpus=4,sockets=8,cores=3,threads=9" behaviors as a wrong
>>>>>>>>> configuration, and the parsing function already report error for this case.
>>>>>>>>> We hope more complete config like "-smp 4,sockets=2,cores=2,threads=1"
>>>>>>>>> for exposure of topology, and the incomplete ones like "-smp 4,sockets=1"
>>>>>>>>> or "-smp 4, cores=1" are not acceptable any more because we are starting
>>>>>>>>> to expose the topology.
>>>>>>>> Incomplete specified topologies *are* acceptable.
>>>>>>>> The smp_parse method will automatically fill in any missing values.
>>>>>>>> ie,
>>>>>>>>     -smp 4,cores=1
>>>>>>>>     -smp cores=1
>>>>>>>>     -smp threads=1
>>>>>>>>     -smp sockets=4
>>>>>>>> are all functionally identical to
>>>>>>>>     -smp 4,sockets=4,cores=1,dies=1,threads=1
>>>>>>>> The QEMU man page says this explicitly
>>>>>>>>                    For the PC target, the number of cores per die, the
>>>>>>>>       number of threads per cores, the number of dies per packages and the
>>>>>>>>       total number of sockets can be specified. Missing values will be
>>>>>>>>       computed. If any on the three values is given, the total number of
>>>>>>>>       CPUs n can be omitted.
>>>>>>> It doesn't say how it will compute them though, which for the default
>>>>>>> smp_parse and for x86 is to prefer sockets over cores over threads.
>>>>>>> That's not necessarily what the user expects. IMO, we need a 'strict=on'
>>>>>>> parameter that doesn't allow any collection of smp parameters which
>>>>>>> require unreasonable assumptions. Reasonable assumptions are threads=1,
>>>>>>> when threads is not specified and the rest of the math adds up. Also,
>>>>>>> maxcpus == cpus when maxcpus isn't specified is reasonable. But, it's not
>>>>>>> as reasonable to decide how to divide cores among sockets or to assume
>>>>>>> threads=1 when only sockets and cores are given. How do we know the user
>>>>>>> didn't forget to specify threads if we can't check the math?
>>>>>> or just outlaw all invalid topologies incl. incomplete by default
>>>>>> (without requiring extra option), and permit them only for old machine
>>>>>> types ()using compat machinery) without topo info provided to guest.
>>>>>> And maybe later deprecate invalid topologies altogether.
>>>>> This feels like it is creating pain for users to fix a problem that
>>>>> isn't shown to actually be causing any common issues.
>>>>> We've supposed that users are having problems when forgetting to
>>>>> specify "threads" and not having the compute value be desirable,
>>>>> but where are the bug reports to back this up ?
>>>>> The partial topologies are valid and have well defined semantics.
>>>>> Those semantics may not match everyone's preference, but that
>>>>> doesn't make them invalid.
>>>> If we adopt the [undocumented] semantics of x86 for arm, then we may
>>>> surprise some users that expect e.g. '-smp 16' to give them a single
>>>> socket with 16 cores, because they'll start getting 16 sockets with 1
>>>> core each. That's because if we don't describe a topology to an arm linux
>>>> guest then it assumes cores. Maybe we shouldn't worry about this, but I'd
>>>> prefer we require explicit inputs from users and, if necessary, for them
>>>> to explicitly opt-in to requiring those explicit inputs.
>>> Even for x86, defaulting to maximising sockets over cores is sub-optimal.
>>> In real world x86 hardware it is very rare to have sockets > 2 or 4. For
>>> large CPU counts, you generally have large cores-per-socket counts on x86.
>>> The QEMU preference for sockets over cores on x86 (and PPC too IIUC)
>>> is a fairly arbitrary historical decision.
>>> It can cause problems with guest OS licensing because both Windows
>>> and RHEL have been known to charge differently for sockets vs cores,
>>> with high core counts being cheaper.
>>> We are not tied into the precise behaviour of the computed topology
>>> values, as we have no made any promises. All that's required is that
>>> we keep ABI compat for existing machine types.
>> If based on this point of view that we haven't made any promises for the
>> precise behavior of the computed topology, things may get much easier.
>> I have the following understanding (also a proposal):
>> We will introduce the support for exposing cpu topology since machine
>> type 6.2 and we will also describe the computed topology for the guest.
>> We will not make any stricter parsing logic, however the -smp content in
>> qemu-options.hx should be rearranged to clearly explain how the missing
>> values will exactly be computed. And this is what QEMU is responsible for.
>> We know that a well designed cpu topology configuration can gain much
>> benefit for the guest, while a badly designed one will also probably cause
>> negative impact. But the users should be responsible for the design of the
>> -smp cmdlines. If they are using an incomplete cmdline for a 6.2 machine,
>> then they should have known what the computed values will be and that
>> the computed topology will be exposed to the guest.
>>> So we could decide to change the computed topology so that it prefers
>>> high core counts, over sockets, whem using new machine types only.
>>> That would seem to benefit all arches, by making QEMU more reflective
>>> of real world CPUs topology.
>> If we really decide to prefer cores over sockets over threads for new
>> machine
>> types, then I think we should also record this change in qemu-option.hx.
> I agree. The proposal sounds good to me. I'd like to hear Eduardo's
> opinion too (CC'ed).
Thanks, Drew. I also hope that more people will reach an agreement on 
this issue,
so that I can prepare v5 with confidence, although it will probably be 
late for 6.1.

> Thanks,
> drew
> .

  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-28 10:49 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 34+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-06-22  9:34 Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 1/7] vl: Add expose=on|off option support in -smp command line Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 2/7] hw/arm/virt: Add separate -smp parsing function for ARM machines Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 3/7] machine: disallow -smp expose=on for non-ARM machines Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 4/7] device_tree: Add qemu_fdt_add_path Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 5/7] hw/arm/virt: Add cpu-map to device tree Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 6/7] hw/acpi/aml-build: Add Processor hierarchy node structure Yanan Wang
2021-06-22  9:34 ` [RFC PATCH v4 7/7] hw/acpi/aml-build: Generate PPTT table Yanan Wang
2021-06-22 10:18 ` [RFC PATCH v4 0/7] hw/arm/virt: Introduce cpu topology support Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-22 11:46   ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-22 12:31     ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-22 12:41       ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-22 14:04         ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-22 14:10           ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-22 14:15             ` Peter Maydell
2021-06-22 14:28               ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-28 11:14                 ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-28 11:31                   ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-28 11:53                     ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-22 14:29             ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-22 15:15               ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-22 15:40               ` Igor Mammedov
2021-06-22 17:08                 ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-22 17:14                 ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-22 17:29                   ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-22 17:39                     ` Daniel P. Berrangé
2021-06-28  8:43                       ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-28  8:58                         ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-28 10:48                           ` wangyanan (Y) [this message]
2021-06-30  6:36                           ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-30  8:30                             ` Andrew Jones
2021-06-30  9:37                               ` wangyanan (Y)
2021-06-30 11:56                                 ` Andrew Jones
2021-07-01  6:15                                   ` wangyanan (Y)

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