* CONFIG_ANDROID [not found] <23929467-11c2-cdf2-3841-2a837ba58b51.ref@yahoo.com> @ 2022-06-30 10:47 ` tlhackque 2022-06-30 11:41 ` CONFIG_ANDROID Jason A. Donenfeld 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: tlhackque @ 2022-06-30 10:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: WireGuard Mailing list [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 961 bytes --] FWIW: Having watched the discussion about CONFIG_ANDROID, it occurs to me that there's an alternative for WireGuard that sidesteps the issue. From the last patcheset, it seems that the only use in WireGuard is to avoid clearing keys on every wake-up. So: Why not timestamp key-clear events, and establish a minimum interval? It seems to me that this would make WireGuard tolerant of the peculiar behavior of the Android (handheld) platforms, and expresses what WireGuard needs - a minimum time between key clearing events. It's also completely under WireGuard's control, is platform agnostic, and avoids an inevitable discussion about whether 2 seconds between wakeups is immutable and satisfies everyone. (If you wait long enough, every constant eventually becomes a variable...) Then WireGuard can watch the duststorm over CONFIG_ANDROID's fate settle out at leisure. I have no dog in this fight - just an observer. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 840 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: CONFIG_ANDROID 2022-06-30 10:47 ` CONFIG_ANDROID tlhackque @ 2022-06-30 11:41 ` Jason A. Donenfeld 2022-06-30 15:50 ` CONFIG_ANDROID tlhackque 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: Jason A. Donenfeld @ 2022-06-30 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tlhackque; +Cc: WireGuard Mailing list On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 06:47:38AM -0400, tlhackque wrote: > FWIW: Having watched the discussion about CONFIG_ANDROID, it occurs to > me that there's an alternative for WireGuard that sidesteps the issue. > > From the last patcheset, it seems that the only use in WireGuard is to > avoid clearing keys on every wake-up. No, it clears keys before sleeping. > > So: Why not timestamp key-clear events, and establish a minimum interval? Because we don't know when we're going to wake up again, and the objective is to maintain forward secrecy. Jason ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: CONFIG_ANDROID 2022-06-30 11:41 ` CONFIG_ANDROID Jason A. Donenfeld @ 2022-06-30 15:50 ` tlhackque 2022-06-30 15:56 ` CONFIG_ANDROID Jason A. Donenfeld 0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread From: tlhackque @ 2022-06-30 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: WireGuard Mailing list [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2293 bytes --] On 30-Jun-22 07:41, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 06:47:38AM -0400, tlhackque wrote: >> FWIW: Having watched the discussion about CONFIG_ANDROID, it occurs to >> me that there's an alternative for WireGuard that sidesteps the issue. >> >> From the last patcheset, it seems that the only use in WireGuard is to >> avoid clearing keys on every wake-up. > No, it clears keys before sleeping. > >> So: Why not timestamp key-clear events, and establish a minimum interval? > Because we don't know when we're going to wake up again, and the > objective is to maintain forward secrecy. > > Jason Thanks for the explanation. One more attempt. If I understand what's happening: You're really trying to establish a maximum key lifetime - sleep being a proxy for "too long to keep using". On conventional platforms, that's been good enough. On these Android platforms, it's not. You're clearing the key before sleeping so that after a presumably longish time, you'll negotiate a new one. But on some platforms, the sleeps are so frequent that "longish" is inconveniently short. And the renegotiations are expensive. On those platforms, you don't clear the key to avoid the frequent renegotiations. This keeps the old key in use across the sleeps. Alternatively, why not make the maximum key lifetime explicit. E.g. On all platforms you could set a renegotiate time when a key is established, and if it has expired on wake (or on use) trigger renegotiation. This guarantees a maximum key lifetime, independent of the frequency or duration of sleeps. And you don't need to know when you'll wake. If you also want to make sure that the key isn't in memory longer than that time (e.g. to avoid capture on a dump or device loss), you could also set a timer (of the sort that wakes the CPU from sleep) that clears the key at that time. There are obvious optimizations if necessary. The point I'm trying to make is that rather than thinking about the annoying platform behavior's effect on the implementation, it's probably better to think about what WireGuard is really trying to do and express it in the implementation. I hope this perspective helps. I'll step out of your way now. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 840 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: CONFIG_ANDROID 2022-06-30 15:50 ` CONFIG_ANDROID tlhackque @ 2022-06-30 15:56 ` Jason A. Donenfeld 0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread From: Jason A. Donenfeld @ 2022-06-30 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tlhackque; +Cc: WireGuard Mailing list On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 5:53 PM tlhackque <tlhackque@yahoo.com> wrote: > If you also want to make sure that the key isn't in memory longer than > that time (e.g. to avoid capture on a dump or device loss), you could > also set a timer (of the sort that wakes the CPU from sleep) that clears > the key at that time. Waking up the CPU some time later to clear a key sounds like a bad waste of power. And such wakeup timers aren't universally available and dependable. Plus, the last thing people want is having WireGuard wake up your laptop from sleep while it's in your bag. You're now proposing all sorts of terrible complexity, instead of the much more simple and covers-all-real-practical-cases of "is it android or is it not?" KISS. Jason ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-06-30 15:58 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 4+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <23929467-11c2-cdf2-3841-2a837ba58b51.ref@yahoo.com> 2022-06-30 10:47 ` CONFIG_ANDROID tlhackque 2022-06-30 11:41 ` CONFIG_ANDROID Jason A. Donenfeld 2022-06-30 15:50 ` CONFIG_ANDROID tlhackque 2022-06-30 15:56 ` CONFIG_ANDROID Jason A. Donenfeld
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