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* New list for people to share maintainer workflows
@ 2019-09-13  7:38 Theodore Y. Ts'o
  2019-09-13 15:04 ` Randy Dunlap
  2019-09-14 16:45 ` Drew DeVault
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Theodore Y. Ts'o @ 2019-09-13  7:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: ksummit-discuss; +Cc: linux-kernel, workflows

At the Maintainer's Summit yesterday, we created a new mailing list:
workflows@vger.kernel.org, where various Maintainers can share their
workflows for handling patch review, collection, testing, and
submission.

We will also be discussing what requirements should be for
infrastructure that will be best suited for common use.  That is, if
we can find rough agreement on what it is needed to make kernel
development more scalable, efficient, and fun, what would we hand as a
set of requirements to a development team that could be funded by our
various sponsors to turn into reality.

Please note that this is a discussion about *requirements* not
implementation.  So for example, if one of the requirements were:

   "it should be like patchwork, in that it is fully compatible with
   e-mail review, except it should work off-line and use something
   like git as its transport layer"

it doesn't mean that patchwork would be used as its implementation layer.

Or, if there is a requirement such as,

   "it should have a web interface, and it should be easy to pull down
   patch series via a git pull, and we should be able to easily view diffs
   between the v49 and v50 version of the patch series"

... it also doesn't follow that Gerrit should be the basis of the
implentation.  (In fact, both of these requirements were expressed as
requirements at the Maintainer's Summit, and there was general
agreement that both of these would be highly desirable as
requirements.)

Of course, if the Gerrit and patchwork teams would like to participate
in the discussion, and work with a smaller working group we will be
forming to refine the requirements and to work with the LF and other
companies to find said funding to implement what these requirements
should look like, that would be excellent.  I think it's fair to say
that in their current forms, *neither* Gerrit nor patchwork completely
meets all of the needs of the kernel development community as a whole,
and as Dmitry stated in his "Reflections on Kernel Development
Process" talk, spreading out our efforts towards improving engineering
productivity may not be the best path to succeess.

Let's continue the discussion on workflows@vger.kernel.org.

Cheers,

						- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: New list for people to share maintainer workflows
  2019-09-13  7:38 New list for people to share maintainer workflows Theodore Y. Ts'o
@ 2019-09-13 15:04 ` Randy Dunlap
  2019-09-13 15:09   ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH
  2019-09-14 16:45 ` Drew DeVault
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Randy Dunlap @ 2019-09-13 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Theodore Y. Ts'o, ksummit-discuss; +Cc: linux-kernel, workflows

On 9/13/19 12:38 AM, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:

> Let's continue the discussion on workflows@vger.kernel.org.

Hi,
Will this be archived on lore.kernel.org?

thnx.
-- 
~Randy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: [Ksummit-discuss] New list for people to share maintainer workflows
  2019-09-13 15:04 ` Randy Dunlap
@ 2019-09-13 15:09   ` " Greg KH
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Greg KH @ 2019-09-13 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Randy Dunlap
  Cc: Theodore Y. Ts'o, ksummit-discuss, linux-kernel, workflows

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 08:04:07AM -0700, Randy Dunlap wrote:
> On 9/13/19 12:38 AM, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> 
> > Let's continue the discussion on workflows@vger.kernel.org.
> 
> Hi,
> Will this be archived on lore.kernel.org?

It is already there:
	https://lore.kernel.org/workflows/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: New list for people to share maintainer workflows
  2019-09-13  7:38 New list for people to share maintainer workflows Theodore Y. Ts'o
  2019-09-13 15:04 ` Randy Dunlap
@ 2019-09-14 16:45 ` Drew DeVault
  2019-09-24  9:26   ` Paolo Bonzini
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread
From: Drew DeVault @ 2019-09-14 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: workflows; +Cc: Theodore Y. Ts'o

Hi Ted! Long email incoming.

I'm very interested in solving these kinds of problems. By way of
introduction, I'm the maintainer of two relevant pieces of free (as in
freedom) software:

<begin introduction>

https://sourcehut.org/
https://aerc-mail.org/

Source code:

https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn?search=sr.ht
https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/aerc

AGPL and MIT licensed, respectively, and the former is also available as
a hosted service. Sourcehut is a software hosting platform like Github
and Gitlab, but it prefers the mailing list workflow. We host git repos,
mailing lists, and continuous integration using KVM. Each of the
services like git repos and bug tracking are standalone and can be used
ala-carte and integrated with external services.

Here's an example archive for a development mailing list:

https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-dev

Note that patches are recognized like patchworks, and feedback written
in the usual style of mailing list patch review is interpreted and shown
inline to make a comfortable web interface. Here's an example of a patch
with some feedback:

https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/ctools/patches/8134

Over time this will evolve into an interface similar to Gerrit. Feeding
emails into automated testing and sending the results back to the list
is another feature I have planned before October. Automated testing of
kernels seems feasible to me given that the CIs run on KVM rather than
containers or something similar. Here's an example build of a Wayland
compositor on Alpine Linux: https://builds.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/job/89260
Click "view manifest" to see the YAML which triggered this, though it
has been programmatically modified and the pretty YAML formatting didn't
survive. The needs of Linux in particular are probably not addressed by
the upstream software, but it might make for a good jumping off point
for a custom solution.

Things like tracking bugs can also be done over email and doesn't
require an account. With an account, though, you can use web-based tools
to do the same tasks that can be done with email. For example, you'll
soon be able to prepare patches on the web as well, so you needn't
configure git send-email locally. I have written a nice tutorial for
those who want to, though: https://git-send-email.io

This plays into a general theme with all of this software, which is
building on top of what people are already using (email), rather than
trying to build a new system from the ground up. We can improve the user
experience without making people drop workflows that they're already
productive with.

aerc is a new mail client I'm working on that aims to replace mutt and
have first-class git integration. The git-specific features haven't
materialized yet so there's not much to introduce, it's just a better
mutt right now.

With introductions out of the way...

<end introduction>

Problems I've faced with trying to advanace email-driven development
into 2019 include:

# Identifying different versions of the same patchset.

Like you mentioned, no one likes Change Ids, including me. So far the
best option I've considered is checking the date - it gets perserved
even through rebases and is /basically/ unique. Enough rebasing and it
*will* get lost, though, and then manual intervention is required.

I've considered a few ways to address this. One route might be to make
git send-email smarter, and utilize heuristics on the reflog to try and
identify that a patch is a -v2. Then we can add an email header like
`Superceeds: <commit or message id or something new>`.

Less desirable options would affect people's workflows, which is
something I'd like to avoid. One example is adding new commands which
explicitly track the evolution of a feature in your local git
repository.

# Pulling down patches to use locally

On the web archives I have a copy-pasteable command which curls down a
patchset and pipes it to git am -3. This seems like a fairly comfortable
solution to me, but this does seem attractive:

> "it should have a web interface, and it should be easy to pull down
> patch series via a git pull, and we should be able to easily view
> diffs between the v49 and v50 version of the patch series"

But, I think this could end up being problematic. We have a similar
example already in GitHub: every pull request is available for fetching
from the remote. For one of my bigger projects, however, the result is
this:

	~/s/wlroots > git ls-remote | wc -l
	From git@github.com:swaywm/wlroots
	1255

At the scale of the Linux kernel I imagine this would get seriously out
of hand. Another problem would be mapping mailing lists to repos. What
git repository do patches on LKML belong to?

Solvable problems, I think, but something to consider.

# Storage medium

> "it should be like patchwork, in that it is fully compatible with
> e-mail review, except it should work off-line and use something
> like git as its transport layer"

I'm not sure how much this was example idea vs actual idea, but let's
assume actual. I just wanted to mention that mail spools work offline
and are already pretty distributed. There's no doubt thousands of copies
of LKML spread about the internet. Maybe this one doesn't need solving.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

* Re: New list for people to share maintainer workflows
  2019-09-14 16:45 ` Drew DeVault
@ 2019-09-24  9:26   ` Paolo Bonzini
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: Paolo Bonzini @ 2019-09-24  9:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Drew DeVault, workflows

On 14/09/19 18:45, Drew DeVault wrote:
> # Identifying different versions of the same patchset.
> 
> Like you mentioned, no one likes Change Ids, including me. So far the
> best option I've considered is checking the date - it gets perserved
> even through rebases and is /basically/ unique. Enough rebasing and it
> *will* get lost, though, and then manual intervention is required.
> 
> I've considered a few ways to address this. One route might be to make
> git send-email smarter, and utilize heuristics on the reflog to try and
> identify that a patch is a -v2. Then we can add an email header like
> `Superceeds: <commit or message id or something new>`.

The date however is lost across git-send-email.  However, you can match
series, rather than patches; a Superseeds header would be nice for that,
but often times it is enough to match on the subject to get a decent result.

It's then possible to run a minimal matching algorithm to identify a
patch that "moves" across revisions of the series.  This is how "git
range-diff" works.

By the way, let me introduce Patchew! [1] Patchew was started when
patchwork seemed to be mostly dead, so it is somewhat similar to
Patchwork 2.0. But it has some nice functionality such as "git
range-diff"-like version comparison, and especially the patch importer
pushes each submitted series to git, complete with Reviewed-by tags and
the like.  The result is then used to run test scripts.  It also has a
REST API and a simple plugin API, so it should also be quite easy to
write new plugins to automatically parse syzbot or 0day emails and turn
them into test failures.

Paolo

[1] I have mentioned Patchew before on the kernel.org users mailing
list.  The largest project using Patchew is QEMU, whose "patch list"
page on patchew.org is at https://patchew.org/QEMU/.

> Less desirable options would affect people's workflows, which is
> something I'd like to avoid. One example is adding new commands which
> explicitly track the evolution of a feature in your local git
> repository.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-09-13  7:38 New list for people to share maintainer workflows Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-13 15:04 ` Randy Dunlap
2019-09-13 15:09   ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Greg KH
2019-09-14 16:45 ` Drew DeVault
2019-09-24  9:26   ` Paolo Bonzini

Workflows Archive on lore.kernel.org

Archives are clonable:
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	public-inbox-index workflows

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