From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com> To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org> Cc: Victor Kaplansky <VICTORK@il.ibm.com>, Anton Blanchard <anton@samba.org>, Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@kernel.crashing.org>, Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Linux PPC dev <linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org>, Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@polymtl.ca>, Michael Ellerman <michael@ellerman.id.au>, Michael Neuling <mikey@neuling.org>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com> Subject: Re: perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 08:20:48 -0700 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20131102152048.GI4067@linux.vnet.ibm.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20131101103017.GF19466@laptop.lan> On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 11:30:17AM +0100, Peter Zijlstra wrote: > On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 02:28:14AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > > > This is a completely untenable position. > > > > Indeed it is! > > > > C/C++ never was intended to be used for parallel programming, > > And yet pretty much all kernels ever written for SMP systems are written > in it; what drugs are those people smoking? There was a time when I wished that the C/C++ standards people had added concurrency to the language 30 years ago, but I eventually realized that any attempt at that time would have been totally broken. > Furthermore there's a gazillion parallel userspace programs. Most of which have very unaggressive concurrency designs. > > and this is > > but one of the problems that can arise when we nevertheless use it for > > parallel programming. As compilers get smarter (for some definition of > > "smarter") and as more systems have special-purpose hardware (such as > > vector units) that are visible to the compiler, we can expect more of > > this kind of trouble. > > > > This was one of many reasons that I decided to help with the C/C++11 > > effort, whatever anyone might think about the results. > > Well, I applaud your efforts, but given the results I think the C/C++ > people are all completely insane. If it makes you feel any better, they have the same opinion of all of us who use C/C++ for concurrency given that the standard provides no guarantee. > > > How do the C/C++ people propose to deal with this? > > > > By marking "ptr" as atomic, thus telling the compiler not to mess with it. > > And thus requiring that all accesses to it be decorated, which in the > > case of RCU could be buried in the RCU accessors. > > This seems contradictory; marking it atomic would look like: > > struct foo { > unsigned long value; > __atomic void *ptr; > unsigned long value1; > }; > > Clearly we cannot hide this definition in accessors, because then > accesses to value* won't see the annotation. #define __rcu __atomic Though there are probably placement restrictions for __atomic that current use of __rcu doesn't pay attention to. > That said; mandating we mark all 'shared' data with __atomic is > completely untenable and is not backwards compatible. > > To be safe we must assume all data shared unless indicated otherwise. Something similar to the compiler directives forcing twos-complement interpretation of signed overflow could be attractive. Not sure what it would do to code generation, though. Thanx, Paul
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com> To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org> Cc: Michael Neuling <mikey@neuling.org>, Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@polymtl.ca>, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>, Linux PPC dev <linuxppc-dev@ozlabs.org>, Anton Blanchard <anton@samba.org>, Frederic Weisbecker <fweisbec@gmail.com>, Victor Kaplansky <VICTORK@il.ibm.com> Subject: Re: perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 08:20:48 -0700 [thread overview] Message-ID: <20131102152048.GI4067@linux.vnet.ibm.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20131101103017.GF19466@laptop.lan> On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 11:30:17AM +0100, Peter Zijlstra wrote: > On Fri, Nov 01, 2013 at 02:28:14AM -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote: > > > This is a completely untenable position. > > > > Indeed it is! > > > > C/C++ never was intended to be used for parallel programming, > > And yet pretty much all kernels ever written for SMP systems are written > in it; what drugs are those people smoking? There was a time when I wished that the C/C++ standards people had added concurrency to the language 30 years ago, but I eventually realized that any attempt at that time would have been totally broken. > Furthermore there's a gazillion parallel userspace programs. Most of which have very unaggressive concurrency designs. > > and this is > > but one of the problems that can arise when we nevertheless use it for > > parallel programming. As compilers get smarter (for some definition of > > "smarter") and as more systems have special-purpose hardware (such as > > vector units) that are visible to the compiler, we can expect more of > > this kind of trouble. > > > > This was one of many reasons that I decided to help with the C/C++11 > > effort, whatever anyone might think about the results. > > Well, I applaud your efforts, but given the results I think the C/C++ > people are all completely insane. If it makes you feel any better, they have the same opinion of all of us who use C/C++ for concurrency given that the standard provides no guarantee. > > > How do the C/C++ people propose to deal with this? > > > > By marking "ptr" as atomic, thus telling the compiler not to mess with it. > > And thus requiring that all accesses to it be decorated, which in the > > case of RCU could be buried in the RCU accessors. > > This seems contradictory; marking it atomic would look like: > > struct foo { > unsigned long value; > __atomic void *ptr; > unsigned long value1; > }; > > Clearly we cannot hide this definition in accessors, because then > accesses to value* won't see the annotation. #define __rcu __atomic Though there are probably placement restrictions for __atomic that current use of __rcu doesn't pay attention to. > That said; mandating we mark all 'shared' data with __atomic is > completely untenable and is not backwards compatible. > > To be safe we must assume all data shared unless indicated otherwise. Something similar to the compiler directives forcing twos-complement interpretation of signed overflow could be attractive. Not sure what it would do to code generation, though. Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-11-03 4:05 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 215+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2013-10-22 23:54 perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Michael Neuling 2013-10-23 7:39 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-23 7:39 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-23 14:19 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-23 14:19 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-23 14:25 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-23 14:25 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-25 17:37 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-25 17:37 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-25 20:31 ` Michael Neuling 2013-10-25 20:31 ` Michael Neuling 2013-10-27 9:00 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-27 9:00 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-28 9:22 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-28 9:22 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-28 10:02 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-28 10:02 ` Frederic Weisbecker 2013-10-28 12:38 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-28 12:38 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-28 13:26 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-28 13:26 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-28 16:34 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-28 16:34 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-28 20:17 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-28 20:17 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-28 20:58 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-28 20:58 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-29 10:21 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 10:21 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 10:30 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 10:30 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 10:35 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 10:35 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-29 20:15 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-29 20:15 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-29 19:27 ` Vince Weaver 2013-10-29 19:27 ` Vince Weaver 2013-10-30 10:42 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 10:42 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 11:48 ` James Hogan 2013-10-30 11:48 ` James Hogan 2013-10-30 12:48 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 12:48 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 13:19 ` [tip:perf/core] tools/perf: Add required memory barriers tip-bot for Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 13:50 ` Vince Weaver 2013-11-06 14:00 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 14:28 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 14:55 ` Vince Weaver 2013-11-06 15:10 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 15:23 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 14:44 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 16:07 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 17:31 ` Vince Weaver 2013-11-06 18:24 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-07 8:21 ` Ingo Molnar 2013-11-07 14:27 ` Vince Weaver 2013-11-07 15:55 ` Ingo Molnar 2013-11-11 16:24 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-11 21:10 ` Ingo Molnar 2013-10-29 21:23 ` perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Michael Neuling 2013-10-29 21:23 ` Michael Neuling 2013-10-30 9:27 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-30 9:27 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-30 11:25 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 11:25 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 14:52 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 14:52 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 15:39 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 15:39 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 17:14 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 17:14 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 17:44 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 17:44 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-31 6:16 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 6:16 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 13:12 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-01 13:12 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-02 16:36 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 16:36 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:26 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:26 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 6:40 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 6:40 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 14:25 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-01 14:25 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-02 17:28 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:28 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 14:56 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-01 14:56 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-02 17:32 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:32 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 14:40 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 14:40 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 15:17 ` [RFC] arch: Introduce new TSO memory barrier smp_tmb() Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-03 15:17 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-03 18:08 ` Linus Torvalds 2013-11-03 18:08 ` Linus Torvalds 2013-11-03 20:01 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-03 20:01 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-03 22:42 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 22:42 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 23:34 ` Linus Torvalds 2013-11-03 23:34 ` Linus Torvalds 2013-11-04 10:51 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 10:51 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 11:22 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 11:22 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 16:27 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 16:27 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 16:48 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 16:48 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 19:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 19:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 19:18 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 19:18 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 20:54 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 20:54 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 20:53 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 20:53 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-05 14:05 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-05 14:05 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-05 14:49 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-05 14:49 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-05 18:49 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-05 18:49 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 11:00 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-06 11:00 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-06 12:39 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 12:39 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 12:51 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2013-11-06 12:51 ` Geert Uytterhoeven 2013-11-06 13:57 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 13:57 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 18:48 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-06 18:48 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-06 19:42 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-06 19:42 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-07 11:17 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-07 11:17 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-07 13:36 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-07 13:36 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-07 23:50 ` Mathieu Desnoyers 2013-11-07 23:50 ` Mathieu Desnoyers 2013-11-04 11:05 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-04 11:05 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-04 16:34 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 16:34 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 20:59 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt 2013-11-03 20:59 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt 2013-11-03 22:43 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 22:43 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-03 17:07 ` perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Will Deacon 2013-11-03 22:47 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 9:57 ` Will Deacon 2013-11-04 10:52 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 16:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-01 16:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-02 17:46 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:46 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 16:18 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-01 16:18 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-02 17:49 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 17:49 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-30 13:28 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 13:28 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-30 15:51 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 15:51 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 18:29 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 18:29 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 19:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-30 19:11 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-31 4:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 4:33 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 4:32 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 4:32 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 9:04 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-31 9:04 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-31 15:07 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 15:07 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 15:19 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-10-31 15:19 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-01 9:28 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 9:28 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 10:30 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-01 10:30 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-02 15:20 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message] 2013-11-02 15:20 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 9:07 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 9:07 ` Peter Zijlstra 2013-11-04 10:00 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-04 10:00 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 9:59 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-31 9:59 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-31 12:28 ` David Laight 2013-10-31 12:28 ` David Laight 2013-10-31 12:55 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-31 12:55 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-10-31 15:25 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-31 15:25 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-01 16:06 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-01 16:06 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-01 16:25 ` David Laight 2013-11-01 16:25 ` David Laight 2013-11-01 16:30 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-01 16:30 ` Victor Kaplansky 2013-11-03 20:57 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt 2013-11-03 20:57 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt 2013-11-02 15:46 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-11-02 15:46 ` Paul E. McKenney 2013-10-28 19:09 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-28 19:09 ` Oleg Nesterov 2013-10-29 14:06 ` [tip:perf/urgent] perf: Fix perf ring buffer memory ordering tip-bot for Peter Zijlstra 2014-05-08 20:46 perf events ring buffer memory barrier on powerpc Mikulas Patocka [not found] ` <OF667059AA.7F151BCC-ONC2257CD3.0036CFEB-C2257CD3.003BBF01@il.ibm.com> 2014-05-09 12:20 ` Mikulas Patocka 2014-05-09 13:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
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