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From: Karim Yaghmour <karim@opersys.com>
To: Thomas Horsten <thomas@horsten.com>
Cc: linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:38:11 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <43DB0343.1090808@opersys.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.40.0601272112590.29965-100000@jehova.dsm.dk>


[This is a repost of the private reply given that lkml wasn't cc'ed]

Thomas Horsten wrote:
>> But when Linux is used instead (something that most major handset
>> manufacturers are working on at the moment), this whole picture changes.
>> Suddenly the whole point of "Free Software" goes away. Because the handset
>> manufacturer modifies, adapts and uses the Linux kernel (for free),
>> without having to give anything back to the community. Yes, they have to
>> make their modified source available, but there is no way a casual user
>> (read: someone not a member of the phone-unlocking mafia) can update the
>> kernel with a modified, recompiled version.

And I would contend that even if they did it wouldn't make much of a
difference. In fact, my reading of GPLv3 is that it would be quite
straight-forward to create GPLv3-compliant consumer exclusion mechanisms.

Here's from an earlier posting I did on the LWN forum discussing the topic:
----------
Prior to booting kernel, let the firmware verify the kernel's signature.
Whether or not the signature is valid, boot the thing. But, if it isn't
valid, lock up or disable or just don't enable those hardware components
that control access to the "stuff" -- and do this in a way that requires
a hard reset for another pass at lock/don't-lock. Then package all the
proprietary/DRM software into individual applications. So everything just
runs as normal up to the time these apps try to access the hardware,
and now because it's disabled, the device is useless.

Using the words of the draft, there are no codes for you to "install and/
or execute" the work. In fact, you're free to install and execute any
kernel you wish. Plus, the kernel's "functioning in all circumstances is
identical". It's just that hardware beneath it just doesn't work any more,
and that, consequently, the proprietary applications running on top can't
do anything because the hardware is disabled.

There you have it, GPL3-compatible DRM -- to the best of my understanding
of course, and mind you I'm not a lawyer.
----------

Just to make sure there is no confusion: note that both signed and
unsigned kernels behave identically here. It's the user-space applications
now that fail when attempting to access some piece of hardware. The
classic case being a mmap'ed register window, therefore both the signed
and unsigned kernel can map it to user-space (i.e. no modification in
behavior for the GPLv3'ed kernel), but the applications' read/writes on
said registers don't work on the non-signed kernel.

Like I said in the LWN forum thread, I do believe things such as DRM
are worth fighting for, but I really think the GPL is the wrong venue.

>> The only way to prevent Linux from being abused in this way is to require
>> that the end-users have a method of installing the modified code on the
>> device for which it was intended (such as your phone). If they don't want
>> to disclose their primary signing keys, fine, but then they need to make
>> another method available of replacing any free software used in the device
>> with a modified (by the end-user) version. I understand the need to
>> protect the non-GPL'ed "baseband" OS from tampering, but it has to be
>> possible to replace the GPL'ed software. This is what this provision is
>> all about (for me), and I think it is an extremely important one.

And entirely useless if you ask me. A GPLv3 could dictate that you could
replace the kernel, but it isn't a hardware license nor a license for
user-space applications -- both of which's direct interaction could not
be dictated by the license of separate "work".

So, in the end, even if this were applied, you would find yourself in a
world where you can replace kernels, but that apart from having access
to running programs on a given architecture, play around with the RAM,
and access entirely unimportant hardware, you can't do very much.

Karim
-- 
President  / Opersys Inc.
Embedded Linux Training and Expertise
www.opersys.com  /  1.866.677.4546

  reply	other threads:[~2006-01-28  5:23 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 214+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-01-20 16:49 GPL V3 and Linux Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 19:11 ` Stephen Hemminger
2006-01-20 19:34   ` Patrick McLean
2006-01-20 18:22     ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 18:30       ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-20 19:45     ` Alan Cox
2006-01-25 18:46     ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Marc Perkel
2006-01-25 17:14       ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25 17:30         ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25 19:24           ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-25 19:50             ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-25 20:44               ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-25 21:20                 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-25 22:39                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-25 23:26                     ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 17:59                     ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 16:28                       ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-26 18:25                       ` Filip Brcic
     [not found]                         ` <Pine.LNX.4.64.0601261233150.17225@turbotaz.ourhouse>
2006-01-26 16:55                           ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-26 22:54                             ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27  2:15                             ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27  2:23                               ` Dave Jones
2006-01-27  2:37                                 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27  2:53                                   ` Dave Jones
2006-01-27 19:50                                     ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27  3:40                                   ` Diego Calleja
2006-01-27  7:34                               ` Arjan van de Ven
2006-01-27  8:09                               ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-27 13:38                               ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 19:50                                 ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 20:30                                   ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 21:12                                     ` David Schwartz
2006-01-27 19:30                                       ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-27 15:56                               ` Roland Kuhn
2006-01-26 18:52                         ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 18:53                       ` Diego Calleja
2006-01-26 18:57                         ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 19:22                           ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 19:52                             ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 20:04                               ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 20:21                                 ` Chase Venters
2006-01-26 20:51                                   ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-26 22:28                                   ` GPL V3 and Linux - V3 adds new restrictions Marc Perkel
2006-01-27  6:58                                     ` sean
2006-01-27  6:58                                       ` sean
2006-01-28  4:44                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-26 19:33                           ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Diego Calleja
2006-01-26 18:57                         ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-26 22:16                     ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26 22:23                       ` Al Viro
2006-01-28  1:33                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 19:45                         ` Michael Buesch
2006-01-28 19:04                           ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-27 10:46                     ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 13:39                       ` Al Viro
2006-01-27 14:00                         ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 14:18                           ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 14:42                             ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 15:20                               ` Al Viro
2006-01-27 15:32                                 ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-27 14:46                           ` Chris Bergeron
2006-01-27 14:47                           ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-28  1:53                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28 23:23                           ` Horst von Brand
2006-01-28  1:46                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-30  7:00                           ` Giacomo A. Catenazzi
2006-01-31 23:18                             ` David Schwartz
2006-01-28  4:39                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28  4:57                         ` Chris Adams
2006-01-28 20:38                         ` Simon Oosthoek
2006-01-29 14:30                         ` Matthias Urlichs
2006-01-28 15:38                       ` Florian Weimer
2006-01-27 21:33                     ` Thomas Horsten
2006-01-28  5:38                       ` Karim Yaghmour [this message]
2006-01-28  8:31                         ` Thomas Horsten
2006-01-28 10:37                           ` Peter Read
2006-01-30 18:15                           ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-01-30 19:43                             ` Glauber de Oliveira Costa
2006-01-30 22:00                               ` Filip Brcic
     [not found]                                 ` <5d6222a80601302012v22196faci3ce81320fb534f30@mail.gmail.com>
2006-02-01 15:30                                   ` Georg C. F. Greve
2006-02-01 16:32                                 ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-01 22:31                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 23:43                                     ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02  0:18                                     ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02  8:39                                     ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02  9:00                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02  9:32                                         ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 10:30                                           ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-04 17:45                                             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-02-02 10:46                                           ` James Bruce
2006-02-02 11:13                                             ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 12:31                                               ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 13:31                                                 ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02 16:23                                                   ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 11:50                                           ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02 16:04                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:40                                             ` Emilio Jesús Gallego Arias
2006-02-02  9:37                                         ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 14:45                                           ` Gene Heskett
2006-02-02 14:38                                         ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02 16:19                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:08                                             ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 17:44                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 17:54                                                 ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 18:12                                                   ` Lennart Sorensen
2006-02-02 18:27                                                     ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-06 16:11                                                       ` Horst von Brand
2006-02-02 18:53                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02 19:20                                                     ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 19:46                                                       ` Mark v Wolher
2006-02-02 19:52                                                       ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02 23:07                                                         ` Pierre Ossman
2006-02-02 23:52                                                           ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-03  8:14                                                       ` Helge Hafting
2006-02-02 18:13                                                 ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-02-02 18:49                                                   ` Lee Revell
2006-02-02 19:11                                                     ` Christopher Friesen
2006-02-02 19:18                                                       ` Lee Revell
2006-02-05  3:58                                                       ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-05  7:06                                                         ` Zan Lynx
2006-02-06 21:07                                                         ` David Schwartz
2006-02-06 22:38                                                           ` Kyle Moffett
2006-02-07 13:44                                                             ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-07 13:40                                                           ` Luke-Jr
2006-02-03 21:33                                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2006-02-01 16:06                               ` Karim Yaghmour
2006-02-02 22:02                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-02-02 22:24                                   ` Lee Revell
2006-02-02 23:04                                   ` Karim Yaghmour
     [not found]                     ` <1138387136.26811.8.camel@localhost>
2006-01-28  2:06                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28  5:22                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-28  6:25                           ` Al Viro
2006-01-28 23:14                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-30 11:26                         ` Alan Cox
2006-01-31 17:57                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 17:24                             ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 19:07                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 18:48                                 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 20:38                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 19:57                                     ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-02-02 19:52                                       ` Matan Peled
     [not found]                                         ` <3e1162e60602021207o5893055fqe8a20c99ff8a19b6@mail.gmail.com>
2006-02-02 20:29                                           ` Matan Peled
2006-01-31 21:45                                     ` Paul Jakma
2006-01-31 21:47                                       ` Stephen Hemminger
2006-01-31 22:25                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01  6:52                                       ` Gene Heskett
2006-01-31 22:04                                     ` Rene Herman
2006-01-31 23:08                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-01-31 23:32                                         ` Paul Jakma
2006-02-01  0:20                                         ` Paul Jakma
2006-02-01 14:29                                         ` Rene Herman
2006-02-01 22:13                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01 23:29                                             ` Rene Herman
2006-02-02  0:01                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-02  0:16                                                 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-02  1:08                                                 ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02  9:50                                                 ` Rene Herman
2006-02-02  6:39                                               ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-02  6:57                                                 ` Kyle Moffett
2006-02-02  7:11                                                   ` David Schwartz
2006-02-03  3:56                                                     ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03  5:35                                                       ` David Schwartz
2006-02-03 13:31                                                         ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03  3:35                                                   ` Andrew James Wade
2006-02-03  5:35                                                     ` David Schwartz
2006-02-01 22:46                                         ` David Schwartz
2006-02-02 12:31                                           ` Krzysztof Halasa
2006-01-31 23:48                                     ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01  0:18                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-02-01  0:45                                         ` Alan Cox
2006-01-31 19:55                                 ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-31 19:10                                   ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 20:16                                     ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-31 19:27                                       ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-31 23:57                                 ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01 10:01                                   ` Rogier Wolff
2006-02-01 13:59                                     ` GPL V3 -- PLEA FOR SANITY Theodore Ts'o
2006-01-31 20:32                             ` GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Diego Calleja
2006-01-31 20:43                               ` Josh Boyer
2006-02-01  0:06                             ` Alan Cox
2006-02-01  1:02                               ` Marc Perkel
2006-01-26  0:53                 ` Kurt Wall
2006-01-21  2:27 ` GPL V3 and Linux Alexander Shishckin
2006-01-21  4:08   ` Chase Venters
2006-01-21  5:56     ` Alexander Shishckin
2006-01-21 18:28       ` Chase Venters
2006-01-21 19:01       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2006-01-21 20:43       ` Horst von Brand
2006-01-23 22:10         ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-24  0:34           ` Chase Venters
2006-01-24  0:52           ` Harald Arnesen
2006-01-24  1:55             ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-01-24  3:08               ` Kyle Moffett
2006-01-24  9:10               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-24 15:49               ` Alan Cox
2006-01-24  9:37             ` Wartan Hachaturow
2006-01-24 10:23           ` David Schwartz
2006-01-24 10:38             ` Lee Revell
2006-01-24 13:53             ` linux-os (Dick Johnson)
2006-01-24 16:13               ` Jeff V. Merkey
2006-01-25  1:21                 ` Ian Kester-Haney
2006-01-25  9:42                   ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-25 16:02                     ` [OT] " Steven Rostedt
2006-01-27  3:10                     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-27  9:54                       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27 10:13                         ` Bas Westerbaan
2006-01-27 10:25                           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27 13:29                         ` Olivier Galibert
2006-01-27 17:51                         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2006-01-28 11:38                           ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-01-27  2:01                   ` Rik van Riel
2006-01-28 20:18                   ` Graham Murray
2006-01-23  9:09       ` Helge Hafting
2006-01-23  9:52       ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2006-02-02 18:48 GPL V3 and Linux - Dead Copyright Holders Shawn Starr

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