From: Christian Brauner <christian@brauner.io>
To: Tycho Andersen <tycho@tycho.ws>
Cc: Jann Horn <jannh@google.com>, Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>,
Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
containers@lists.linux-foundation.org,
suda.akihiro@lab.ntt.co.jp, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>,
kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@ubuntu.com>,
Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>,
linux-security-module <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
selinux@tycho.nsa.gov, Stephen Smalley <sds@tycho.nsa.gov>,
Eric Paris <eparis@parisplace.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v7 3/6] seccomp: add a way to get a listener fd from ptrace
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 20:28:22 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20181010182821.grl7fwmcuk7rlogc@brauner.io> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20181010172622.GB5607@cisco>
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 10:26:22AM -0700, Tycho Andersen wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 07:15:02PM +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 09:54:58AM -0700, Tycho Andersen wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 05:39:57PM +0200, Christian Brauner wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 05:33:43PM +0200, Jann Horn wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 5:32 PM Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 9:36 AM Jann Horn <jannh@google.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > +cc selinux people explicitly, since they probably have opinions on this
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just spent about twenty minutes working my way through this thread,
> > > > > > and digging through the containers archive trying to get a good
> > > > > > understanding of what you guys are trying to do, and I'm not quite
> > > > > > sure I understand it all. However, from what I have seen, this
> > > > > > approach looks very ptrace-y to me (I imagine to others as well based
> > > > > > on the comments) and because of this I think ensuring the usual ptrace
> > > > > > access controls are evaluated, including the ptrace LSM hooks, is the
> > > > > > right thing to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Basically the problem is that this new ptrace() API does something
> > > > > that doesn't just influence the target task, but also every other task
> > > > > that has the same seccomp filter. So the classic ptrace check doesn't
> > > > > work here.
> > > >
> > > > Just to throw this into the mix: then maybe ptrace() isn't the right
> > > > interface and we should just go with the native seccomp() approach for
> > > > now.
> > >
> > > Please no :).
> > >
> > > I don't buy your arguments that 3-syscalls vs. one is better. If I'm
> > > doing this setup with a new container, I have to do
> > > clone(CLONE_FILES), do this seccomp thing, so that my parent can pick
> > > it up again, then do another clone without CLONE_FILES, because in the
> > > general case I don't want to share my fd table with the container,
> > > wait on the middle task for errors, etc. So we're still doing a bunch
> > > of setup, and it feels more awkward than ptrace, with at least as many
> > > syscalls, and it only works for your children.
> >
> > You're talking about the case where you already have shot yourself in
> > the foot by blocking basically all other sensible ways of getting the fd
> > out.
>
> Ok, but these other ways involve syscalls too (sendmsg() or whatever).
> And if you're going to allow arbitrary policy from your users, you
> have to be maximally flexible.
So, I totally like the idea of being able to get an fd before the filter
is active. If this could be done in seccomp()-only it would be A+ (See
Andy's mail in the other thread.)
But I really don't want to keep you working on this forever. :)
>
> > Also, this was meant to show that parts of your initial justification
> > for implementing the ptrace() way of getting an fd doesn't really stand.
> > And it doesn't really. Even with ptrace() you can get into situations
> > where you're not able to get an fd. (see prior threads)
>
> Of course. I guess my point was that we shouldn't design an API that's
> impossible to use. I'll drop the notes about sendmsg() from the commit
> message.
>
> Tycho
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-10-11 1:51 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 91+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-09-27 15:11 [PATCH v7 0/6] seccomp trap to userspace Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 1/6] seccomp: add a return code to " Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 21:31 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-27 22:48 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 23:10 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-28 14:39 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-08 14:58 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 14:28 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-09 16:24 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 16:29 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-17 20:29 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-17 22:21 ` Kees Cook
2018-10-17 22:33 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-21 16:04 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-22 9:42 ` Christian Brauner
2018-09-27 21:51 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 22:45 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-27 23:08 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 23:04 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 23:37 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-29 0:28 ` Aleksa Sarai
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 2/6] seccomp: make get_nth_filter available outside of CHECKPOINT_RESTORE Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 16:51 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 21:42 ` Kees Cook
2018-10-08 13:55 ` Christian Brauner
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 3/6] seccomp: add a way to get a listener fd from ptrace Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 16:20 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 16:34 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 17:35 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 18:09 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 21:53 ` Kees Cook
2018-10-08 15:16 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-08 15:33 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-08 16:21 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-08 16:42 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-08 18:18 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 12:39 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-09 13:28 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 13:36 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-09 13:49 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 13:50 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-09 14:09 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 15:26 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-09 16:20 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-09 16:26 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-10 12:54 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 13:09 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 13:10 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-10 13:18 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 15:31 ` Paul Moore
2018-10-10 15:33 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-10 15:39 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 16:54 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-10 17:15 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 17:26 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-10 18:28 ` Christian Brauner [this message]
2018-10-11 7:24 ` Paul Moore
2018-10-11 13:39 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-11 23:10 ` Paul Moore
2018-10-12 1:02 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-10-12 20:02 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-12 20:06 ` Jann Horn
2018-10-12 20:11 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-08 18:00 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-10-08 18:41 ` Christian Brauner
2018-10-10 17:45 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-10-10 18:26 ` Christian Brauner
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 4/6] files: add a replace_fd_files() function Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 16:49 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 18:04 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 21:59 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-28 2:20 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-28 2:46 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-28 5:23 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 5/6] seccomp: add a way to pass FDs via a notification fd Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 16:39 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 22:13 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 19:28 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 22:14 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 22:17 ` Jann Horn
2018-09-27 22:49 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 22:09 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-27 22:15 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 15:11 ` [PATCH v7 6/6] samples: add an example of seccomp user trap Tycho Andersen
2018-09-27 22:11 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-28 21:57 ` [PATCH v7 0/6] seccomp trap to userspace Michael Kerrisk (man-opages)
2018-09-28 22:03 ` Tycho Andersen
2018-09-28 22:16 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2018-09-28 22:34 ` Kees Cook
2018-09-28 22:46 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2018-09-28 22:48 ` Jann Horn
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