From: Pavel Begunkov <asml.silence@gmail.com>
To: Stephen Hemminger <stephen@networkplumber.org>
Cc: Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology
Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 13:51:01 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <058cea17-7009-c3e9-8c58-9b9ef44b85eb@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200707204241.36bea66a@hermes.lan>
On 08/07/2020 06:42, Stephen Hemminger wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:03:36 +0300
> Pavel Begunkov <asml.silence@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 07/07/2020 01:28, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 01:17:47 +0300
>>> Pavel Begunkov <asml.silence@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Totally agree with you! But do we care then whether two _devices_ or _objects_
>>>> are slave-master? Can't see how it fundamentally differs.
>>>
>>> The term slave carries a lot more meaning than subordinate. I replied to
>>> someone else but later realized that the person sent me their reply
>>> offlist, so my reply to them was also offlist. What I told them was,
>>> back in college (decades ago), when I first mentioned "master/slave" in
>>> conversation (I think it was about hard drives), a person in that
>>> conversation stated that those were not very nice terms to use. I blew
>>> it off back then, but after listening to more people, I found that
>>> using "slave" even to describe a device is not something that people
>>> care to hear about.
>>
>> That's cultural, but honestly I've never seen such a person. I still
>> don't understand, why having secondary or subordinate object belittling
>> the owned side by not providing it the same rights and freedom is OK,
>> but slave/master objects are not. Where is the line?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> And in actuality, does one device actually enslave another device? I
>>> think that terminology is misleading to begin with.
>>
>> As mentioned, I do like good clear terminology, and if it conveys the idea
>> better, etc., then it's worth to try. And IMHO that's the right reasoning
>> that should be behind. Otherwise, for almost every word we can find a person
>> seeing something subjectively offensive or at least bad in it.
>
> Wherever possible the kernel should use the same terminology as the current
> standard in that area. Many of the master/slave references in the networking
> code are for protocols based on IEEE 802 standards (unfortunately paywalled).
> The current version of those standards do not use this kind of wording and the
> standards committees are also actively working on inclusive language statemets.
>
> As far as the use of master/slave for bonding, bridge, team etc, it
> looks like Linux just invented using those terms since I don't see it
> any other vendors implementations Cisco/Juniper/Arista/... Linux terms
> are different than industry norms in networking, this is not a good
> thing. But changing human expectations is hard.
And that's a perfectly convincing argument for a change -- consistency makes
it easier to work with specs and code. I've never said anything against.
I care about arguments being logically sound, as yours are. And the author
neither provides such, nor IMHO actually helps the issues it raised.
--
Pavel Begunkov
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-07-08 10:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 92+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-07-04 20:02 [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology Dan Williams
2020-07-04 20:31 ` Randy Dunlap
2020-07-04 23:41 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Dave Airlie
[not found] ` <CAFhKne9MA_G-UsvBFfX-gZRcu9Gb7Xt7UxQ14MTppdU3X1VYdQ@mail.gmail.com>
2020-07-05 1:10 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Kees Cook
2020-07-05 2:44 ` Randy Dunlap
2020-07-06 11:15 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] " Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2020-07-06 15:53 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-05 2:54 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Dave Airlie
2020-07-04 20:44 ` Stephen Rothwell
2020-07-04 23:34 ` Dave Airlie
2020-07-05 2:12 ` Stephen Rothwell
2020-07-05 2:56 ` Dave Airlie
2020-07-05 3:23 ` James Bottomley
2020-07-05 3:26 ` Stephen Rothwell
2020-07-04 21:14 ` Olof Johansson
2020-07-04 21:25 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " James Bottomley
2020-07-04 21:51 ` Joe Perches
2020-07-04 23:39 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Dave Airlie
2020-07-05 0:08 ` Joe Perches
2020-07-05 1:32 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-05 17:50 ` opal hart
2020-07-04 23:42 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Dave Airlie
2020-07-05 0:41 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-07 4:30 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-10 16:52 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Andy Lutomirski
2020-07-05 4:55 ` Willy Tarreau
2020-07-06 3:13 ` Daniel Palmer
2020-07-06 12:45 ` Chris Mason
2020-07-06 14:06 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Laurent Pinchart
2020-07-06 15:55 ` Chris Mason
2020-07-06 16:06 ` Mike Rapoport
2020-07-07 4:17 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-06 15:22 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-07-06 15:40 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Steven Rostedt
[not found] ` <CAFhKne_ZVWVhZX5hNEbeGBfU6BMRN9JKQeTsVYOcMmEH1cd3xg@mail.gmail.com>
2020-07-06 7:06 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " NeilBrown
2020-07-06 7:10 ` NeilBrown
2020-07-06 7:22 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-07-06 7:53 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2020-07-06 10:22 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-07-06 12:51 ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-07-06 12:59 ` Joe Perches
2020-07-06 13:04 ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-07-06 13:30 ` Joe Perches
2020-07-09 11:11 ` Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2020-07-13 4:25 ` Vinod Koul
2020-07-13 15:55 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-06 13:23 ` Tibor Raschko
2020-07-06 16:29 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Andy Lutomirski
2020-07-07 4:00 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-07 5:56 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-07 6:49 ` Mike Rapoport
2020-07-07 13:37 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Steven Rostedt
2020-07-07 15:24 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] " Bird, Tim
2020-07-07 15:33 ` Randy Dunlap
2020-07-07 15:41 ` Steven Rostedt
2020-07-07 15:55 ` Bird, Tim
2020-07-07 6:56 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Harrosh, Boaz
2020-07-07 8:54 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-07 13:41 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Steven Rostedt
2020-07-07 14:45 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] " Mike Rapoport
2020-07-07 20:56 ` Kees Cook
2020-07-07 21:48 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Arvind Sankar
2020-07-07 12:13 ` Mark Brown
2020-07-06 18:30 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Shuah Khan
2020-07-06 23:58 ` Tibor Raschko
2020-07-09 10:43 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2020-07-09 16:01 ` Shuah Khan
2020-07-09 16:13 ` [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] " Mark Brown
2020-07-09 16:32 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] " James Bottomley
2020-07-09 16:35 ` [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] " Steven Rostedt
2020-07-10 9:38 ` [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] " Tibor Raschko
2020-07-07 4:04 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-06 19:15 ` Mark Brown
2020-07-07 0:48 ` Tibor Raschko
2020-07-07 21:26 ` Arvind Sankar
2020-07-07 23:54 ` Tibor Raschko
2020-07-07 4:08 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-07 9:36 ` Mark Brown
2020-07-06 21:31 ` Pavel Begunkov
2020-07-06 22:10 ` [Tech-board-discuss] " Steven Rostedt
2020-07-06 22:17 ` Pavel Begunkov
2020-07-06 22:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2020-07-06 23:03 ` Pavel Begunkov
2020-07-08 3:42 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Stephen Hemminger
2020-07-08 10:51 ` Pavel Begunkov [this message]
2020-07-07 6:56 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " SeongJae Park
2020-07-08 7:12 ` Dan Williams
2020-07-08 9:28 ` SeongJae Park
2020-07-07 7:51 ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-08 18:40 ` Daniel Vetter
2020-07-17 8:35 ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-26 15:30 ` [Ksummit-discuss] " Laurent Pinchart
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