From: Adrian Bunk <bunk@stusta.de>
To: William Lee Irwin III <wli@debian.org>
Cc: Bill Davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>,
Andries Brouwer <aebr@win.tue.nl>,
Maciej Soltysiak <solt2@dns.toxicfilms.tv>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: starting with 2.7
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 01:45:51 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20050103004551.GK4183@stusta.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20050103003011.GP29332@holomorphy.com>
On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 04:30:11PM -0800, William Lee Irwin III wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> >> The main advantage with stable kernels in the good old days (tm) when 4
> >> and 6 were even numbers was that you knew if something didn't work, and
> >> upgrading to a new kernel inside this stable kernel series had a
> >> relatively low risk of new breakages. This meant one big migration every
> >> few years and relatively easy upgrades between stable series kernels.
> >> Nowadays in 2.6, every new 2.6 kernel has several regressions compared
> >> to the previous one, and additionally obsolete but used code like
> >> ipchains and devfs is scheduled for removal making upgrades even harder
> >> for many users.
>
> On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 05:49:08PM -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> > And there you have my largest complaint with the new model. If 2.6 is
> > stable, it should not have existing features removed just because
> > someone has a new wet dream about a better but incompatible way to do
> > things. I expect working programs to be deliberately broken in a
> > development tree, but once existing features are removed there simply is
> > no stable set of features.
>
> The presumption is that these changes are frivolous. This is false.
> The removals of these features are motivated by their unsoundness,
> and those removals resolve real problems. If they did not do so, they
> would not pass peer review.
The netfilter people plan to remove ipfwadm and ipchains before 2.6.11 .
This is legacy code that makes their development sometimes a bit harder,
but AFAIK ipchains in 2.6.10 doesn't suffer from any serious real
problems.
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> >> There's the point that most users should use distribution kernels, but
> >> consider e.g. that there are poor souls with new hardware not supported
> >> by the 3 years old 2.4.18 kernel in the stable part of your Debian
> >> distribution.
>
> On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 05:49:08PM -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> > The stable and development kernel model worked for a decade, partly
> > because people could build on a feature set and not have that feature
> > just go away, leaving the choice of running without fixes or not
> > running. Since we manage to support 2.2 and 2.4 (and perhaps even 2.0?)
> > I don't see why the definition of "stable" can't simply mean "no
> > deletions from the feature set" and let new features come in for those
> > who want them. Absent that 2.4 will be the last stable kernel, in the
> > sense that features won't be deliberately broken or removed.
>
> I can't speak for anyone during the times of more ancient Linux history;
> however, developers' dissatisfaction with the development model has been
> aired numerous times in certain fora. It has not satisfactorily served
> developers or users. Users are locked into distro kernels for
> incompatible extensions, and developers are torn between multiple
> codebases.
At least on Debian, ftp.kernel.org kernels work fine.
> This fragmentation of programmer effort is trivially recognizable as
> counterproductive. A single focal point for programmer effort is far
> superior for a development model. If the standard of stability is not
> passed then the code is not ready to be included in any kernel. Then
> the distinction is lost, and each of the fragmented codebases gets a
> third-class effort, and a spurious expenditure of effort is wasted on
> porting fixes and features across numerous different codebases.
>...
My impression is that currently 2.4 doesn't take that much time of
developers (except for Marcelo's), and that it's a quite usable and
stable kernel.
> -- wli
cu
Adrian
--
"Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
"Only a promise," Lao Er said.
Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-01-03 0:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 222+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-01-02 20:03 starting with 2.7 Maciej Soltysiak
2005-01-02 20:08 ` Emmanuel Fleury
2005-01-02 20:36 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-02 21:01 ` Re[2]: " Maciej Soltysiak
2005-01-02 21:24 ` Andries Brouwer
2005-01-02 21:42 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-02 22:15 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-02 22:49 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-02 23:14 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-01-03 0:30 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 0:45 ` Adrian Bunk [this message]
2005-01-03 1:19 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 5:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-03 12:33 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 21:38 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-03 22:09 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 23:53 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 5:06 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-04 5:29 ` Sean
2005-01-05 8:42 ` Andrew Morton
2005-01-05 9:13 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-04 13:17 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 13:24 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-03 13:47 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 17:18 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:04 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 18:41 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:36 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-03 18:59 ` Russell King
2005-01-03 19:07 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 19:26 ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-01-03 21:06 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-04 0:24 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-04 3:12 ` Thomas Graf
2005-01-04 5:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 15:21 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 15:58 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 17:38 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-01-04 23:51 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 0:09 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 18:30 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 18:56 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 19:08 ` Chris Friesen
2005-01-04 15:34 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 21:19 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-04 21:43 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 23:50 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 5:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-05 7:04 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 8:33 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-06 18:08 ` Paul Rolland
2005-01-06 21:08 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-06 22:50 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-07 14:34 ` Paul Rolland
2005-01-05 0:00 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 0:33 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-05 18:40 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 21:13 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 21:35 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-01-04 0:02 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 3:32 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 9:27 ` Andrew Morton
2005-01-05 10:57 ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 3:15 ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-01-06 14:03 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-06 16:34 ` Ramón Rey Vicente
2005-01-06 19:32 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-06 19:58 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-06 22:31 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-07 8:33 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-06 20:48 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 19:28 ` Jens Axboe
2005-01-03 22:39 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 7:46 ` Jens Axboe
2005-01-04 18:34 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 21:03 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 23:42 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 17:31 ` Rahul Karnik
2005-01-04 18:44 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 21:04 ` Pavel Machek
2005-01-04 21:28 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 21:51 ` APM vs. ACPI, janitor wanted? [was Re: starting with 2.7] Pavel Machek
2005-01-04 12:57 ` starting with 2.7 William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 15:08 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 15:34 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 16:53 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 19:57 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 20:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 20:34 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 20:55 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 21:23 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 22:01 ` Andries Brouwer
2005-01-04 21:01 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-06 9:45 ` Marcelo Tosatti
2005-01-06 15:50 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-06 16:59 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-06 14:38 ` Marcelo Tosatti
2005-01-04 20:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-05 0:02 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-05 5:49 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 2:06 ` Roman Zippel
2005-01-04 2:36 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-03 12:52 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:52 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-03 17:15 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-01-02 23:14 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-02 23:21 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2005-01-03 9:57 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series (was Re: starting with 2.7) L. A. Walsh
2005-01-03 12:17 ` Robert W. Fuller
2005-01-03 13:58 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 14:24 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 4:56 ` David Lang
2005-01-04 14:52 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 7:00 ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-01-09 0:13 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series L A Walsh
2005-01-10 13:44 ` Adam Sampson
2005-01-10 16:50 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-10 19:24 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 20:50 ` jmerkey
2005-01-03 22:20 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series (was Re: starting with 2.7) Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 13:08 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 18:20 ` Dave Jones
2005-01-06 15:31 ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 18:23 ` [PATCH] zap the ACPI shutdown bug (was Re: Reviving the concept of a stable series) Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 19:07 ` Dave Jones
2005-01-06 21:19 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 0:19 ` starting with 2.7 William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 0:38 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 0:49 ` Adam Mercer
2005-01-03 1:20 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 12:13 ` Steven Rostedt
2005-01-03 1:21 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 22:26 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:20 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 15:29 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 15:37 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 17:39 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 20:59 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 21:47 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 21:48 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 22:03 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 22:10 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 22:14 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-03 23:41 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 5:46 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 6:36 ` Al Viro
2005-01-04 10:23 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 12:36 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 12:59 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 20:09 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 20:17 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 6:20 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-05 11:30 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-04 20:24 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-05 13:31 ` Helge Hafting
2005-01-05 19:16 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 21:19 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 9:17 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-01-04 13:27 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 14:27 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 15:31 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 16:51 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 20:58 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 23:07 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 23:18 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 22:04 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-03 22:01 ` Sean
2005-01-04 5:44 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 13:11 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 23:21 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:18 ` Wakko Warner
2005-01-03 23:06 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:18 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 15:34 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 15:46 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 15:59 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-03 23:34 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 7:42 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-04 13:14 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 17:47 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 20:18 ` David Lang
2005-01-04 23:03 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-05 7:39 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-06 19:35 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-06 23:33 ` Daniel Gryniewicz
2005-01-07 1:51 ` David Lang
2005-01-07 5:48 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-03 22:53 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-06 3:52 ` Ian Kent
2005-01-06 20:02 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-06 21:29 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-07 0:06 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-07 16:34 ` M. Edward Borasky
2005-01-07 17:25 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-09 2:31 ` M. Edward Borasky
2005-01-09 3:01 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-01-09 3:08 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-09 23:02 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 0:30 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-10 1:26 ` Indrek Kruusa
2005-01-10 1:28 ` Dave Airlie
2005-01-10 2:16 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-10 4:51 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-10 18:27 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 20:11 ` Andi Kleen
2005-01-10 19:55 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 21:08 ` Andi Kleen
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 22:19 ` Dave Airlie
2005-01-11 0:54 ` Matt Mackall
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-04 16:07 Indrek Kruusa
2005-01-07 11:07 Nicolas Mailhot
2005-01-07 11:15 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-07 11:17 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-07 17:34 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-08 15:45 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-11 7:17 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-11 17:36 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-11 19:59 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-01-10 21:32 ` Bill Davidsen
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