From: John Richard Moser <nigelenki@comcast.net>
To: znmeb@cesmail.net
Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: starting with 2.7
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 12:25:05 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <41DEC5F1.9070205@comcast.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1105115671.12371.38.camel@DreamGate>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
M. Edward Borasky wrote:
| On Thu, 2005-01-06 at 21:29 +0000, Alan Cox wrote:
|
|>On Iau, 2005-01-06 at 20:02, John Richard Moser wrote:
|>
|>>experiments have no place in production; if your "stable" mainline
|>>branch is going to continuously add and remove features and go through
|>>wild API and functionality changes, nobody is going to want to use it.
|>>Mozilla doesn't support IE's broken crap "because IE is a moving
|>>target." Unpredictable API changes and changes to the deep inner
|>
|>IE hasn't moved in years. The inventiveness of the bad web page authors
|>might be unbounded 8)
|>
|>
|>>workings of the kernel will make the kernel "a moving target." If
|>>that's the route you take, it will become too difficult for people to
|>>develope for linux.
|>
|>Its also impossible to do development if none of the changes you make
|>get into the kernel for stability reasons ever. Its a double edged
|>sword. For most end users it is about distribution kernels not the base.
|
|
| There are two classes of "end users". There are true end users who get
| their Linux from a distributor, and there are the distributors. And
| there are two classes of distributors, for-profit and not-for-profit.
| Somehow the Linux kernel has managed to meet enough of the needs of
| enough of these folks that GNU/Linux is one of the top three desktop
| operating systems in the world. I'm not sure where it ranks among
| servers, but surely it's competitive with Windows on Intel-based
| servers, if not with the "native" UNIX derivatives on other hardware.
|
Uh.
Businesses, institutions like schools and libraries, home users, those
aren't the same. They all have needs.
For example, a POS that flops and crashes every 5 hours is going to be
bad for a business; a home user can do it without losing billions of
dollars a year.
| I use Red Hat (mix of 8.0, 9.0 and RHEL) at work and Gentoo at home. I
| recently migrated all my home systems to Gentoo's version of 2.6.10, did
| the devfs-udev, oss-alsa, 2.4 headers-2.6 headers, and ntpl migration.
| As far as Gentoo is concerned, this is a stable, production
| environment.
|
Bull. Shit.
Try /join #hardened-gentoo and ask about how stable 2.6 is once. The
hardened team has been having a hard time because 2.6 keeps changing.
I was told that gentoo-dev-sources and hardened-dev-sources will become
gentoo-sources and hardened-sources when they're considered stable.
They're still -dev. What does this tell you?
<@tseng> stable? sometimes
<@tseng> production, nope.
| I had a few glitches; it's not something I'd expect someone without
| extensive system programming experience to pull off, even with Gentoo's
| well-written HowTos. As far as *I'm* concerned, it is a stable
| production environment.
That's you.
| I would recommend it to my friends (knowing that
| I could bail them out if they messed it up :). I would recommend it to
| businesses (knowing that I could earn big bucks to bail them out when
| they messed it up. :).
|
I wouldn't recommend it to businesses, because a fuck-up means they lose
money. You ever see a production server go down? You can totally wipe
out a business that way. If a glitch trashes the filesystem, you might
as well stop trying. Unless of course you can ship your off-site
backups back on-site and restore the whole damn thing to working order
within 3 days. Better hope the kernel you were using when it was
working is in the backups.
| Given all that, what about 2.6 and 2.7? Here's where I break away from
| the mainstream -- big-time. I'd like to see 2.6 live forever as the
| "stable general purpose kernel of choice for multiple architectures"
| that it is today. And I'd like to see the broad "kernel community" move
| to a 64-bit-only microkernel-based "GNU/Whatever".
Dreamer.
|
| There's just too many hacks, patches, band-aids, etc., in the address
| space on 32-bit architectures. Just about everybody *has* a 64-bit
| address space available, and the performance penalities that drove Linus
| away from microkernels have, to my knowledge, been resolved.
|
What? I have amd64, nobody else I know does. My aunt had one taylored
to her needs, but that was from my influence. The other 2 people I know
who bought new machines got an Athlon and a Sempron.
Linus hates microkernels :o
| Which microkernel? Well ... I'm sure there are people here who are more
| expert than I am. The one that appeals to me the most is the Dresden
| Real-Time Operating System/L4 line, which, in fact, can support Linux
| 2.4 and 2.6 on 32-bit architectures as a "bonus". 64 bit is the future
| -- I expect to have a 64-bit machine operating by summer, although it's
| not clear to me whether it will be AMD64 or PPC64 at this point, and
| it's not clear to me whether the OS will be Gentoo GNU/Linux or
| Macintosh OS X. I'm really intrigued with the thought of a G5
| dual-booted; I've had a lot of fun with Windows/Linux dual-boot machines
| over the years. :)
|
|
| -
| To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
| the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
| More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
| Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
|
- --
All content of all messages exchanged herein are left in the
Public Domain, unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iD8DBQFB3sXvhDd4aOud5P8RAv0DAJ4xjlbhzaNN7N6nu3jM06EEq8QtSwCeOCrh
yTxloXo434xAtQvInE7PNRA=
=oTE1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-01-07 17:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 222+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-01-02 20:03 starting with 2.7 Maciej Soltysiak
2005-01-02 20:08 ` Emmanuel Fleury
2005-01-02 20:36 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-02 21:01 ` Re[2]: " Maciej Soltysiak
2005-01-02 21:24 ` Andries Brouwer
2005-01-02 21:42 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-02 22:15 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-02 22:49 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-02 23:14 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-01-03 0:30 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 0:45 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 1:19 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 5:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-03 12:33 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 21:38 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-03 22:09 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 23:53 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 5:06 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-04 5:29 ` Sean
2005-01-05 8:42 ` Andrew Morton
2005-01-05 9:13 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-04 13:17 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 13:24 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-03 13:47 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 17:18 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:04 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 18:41 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:36 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-03 18:59 ` Russell King
2005-01-03 19:07 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 19:26 ` Randy.Dunlap
2005-01-03 21:06 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-04 0:24 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-04 3:12 ` Thomas Graf
2005-01-04 5:33 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 15:21 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 15:58 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 17:38 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-01-04 23:51 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 0:09 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 18:30 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 18:56 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 19:08 ` Chris Friesen
2005-01-04 15:34 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 21:19 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-04 21:43 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 23:50 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 5:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-05 7:04 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 8:33 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-06 18:08 ` Paul Rolland
2005-01-06 21:08 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-06 22:50 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-07 14:34 ` Paul Rolland
2005-01-05 0:00 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 0:33 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-05 18:40 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 21:13 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 21:35 ` Jesper Juhl
2005-01-04 0:02 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 3:32 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-05 9:27 ` Andrew Morton
2005-01-05 10:57 ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 3:15 ` Ed Tomlinson
2005-01-06 14:03 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-06 16:34 ` Ramón Rey Vicente
2005-01-06 19:32 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-06 19:58 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-06 22:31 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-07 8:33 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-06 20:48 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 19:28 ` Jens Axboe
2005-01-03 22:39 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 7:46 ` Jens Axboe
2005-01-04 18:34 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 21:03 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 23:42 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 17:31 ` Rahul Karnik
2005-01-04 18:44 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 21:04 ` Pavel Machek
2005-01-04 21:28 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 21:51 ` APM vs. ACPI, janitor wanted? [was Re: starting with 2.7] Pavel Machek
2005-01-04 12:57 ` starting with 2.7 William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 15:08 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 15:34 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 16:53 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 19:57 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 20:30 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 20:34 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 20:55 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 21:23 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 22:01 ` Andries Brouwer
2005-01-04 21:01 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-06 9:45 ` Marcelo Tosatti
2005-01-06 15:50 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-01-06 16:59 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-06 14:38 ` Marcelo Tosatti
2005-01-04 20:17 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-05 0:02 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-05 5:49 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 2:06 ` Roman Zippel
2005-01-04 2:36 ` Paolo Ciarrocchi
2005-01-03 12:52 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:52 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-03 17:15 ` Jeff V. Merkey
2005-01-02 23:14 ` Diego Calleja
2005-01-02 23:21 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2005-01-03 9:57 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series (was Re: starting with 2.7) L. A. Walsh
2005-01-03 12:17 ` Robert W. Fuller
2005-01-03 13:58 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 14:24 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 4:56 ` David Lang
2005-01-04 14:52 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 7:00 ` Eric W. Biederman
2005-01-09 0:13 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series L A Walsh
2005-01-10 13:44 ` Adam Sampson
2005-01-10 16:50 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-10 19:24 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 20:50 ` jmerkey
2005-01-03 22:20 ` Reviving the concept of a stable series (was Re: starting with 2.7) Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 13:08 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 18:20 ` Dave Jones
2005-01-06 15:31 ` Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 18:23 ` [PATCH] zap the ACPI shutdown bug (was Re: Reviving the concept of a stable series) Barry K. Nathan
2005-01-06 19:07 ` Dave Jones
2005-01-06 21:19 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 0:19 ` starting with 2.7 William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 0:38 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 0:49 ` Adam Mercer
2005-01-03 1:20 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 12:13 ` Steven Rostedt
2005-01-03 1:21 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 22:26 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:20 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 15:29 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 15:37 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 17:39 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 20:59 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-03 21:47 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 21:48 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 22:03 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-03 22:10 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 22:14 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-03 23:41 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 5:46 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 6:36 ` Al Viro
2005-01-04 10:23 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 12:36 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 12:59 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 20:09 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 20:17 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-05 6:20 ` Alexander E. Patrakov
2005-01-05 11:30 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-04 20:24 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-05 13:31 ` Helge Hafting
2005-01-05 19:16 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-05 21:19 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 9:17 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-01-04 13:27 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 14:27 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 15:31 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 16:51 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 20:58 ` Horst von Brand
2005-01-04 23:07 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-04 23:18 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-04 22:04 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-03 22:01 ` Sean
2005-01-04 5:44 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-01-04 13:11 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 23:21 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 18:18 ` Wakko Warner
2005-01-03 23:06 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-03 15:18 ` Rik van Riel
2005-01-03 15:34 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-03 15:46 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-03 15:59 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-03 23:34 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-04 7:42 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-04 13:14 ` William Lee Irwin III
2005-01-04 17:47 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-04 20:18 ` David Lang
2005-01-04 23:03 ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2005-01-05 7:39 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-01-06 19:35 ` Adrian Bunk
2005-01-06 23:33 ` Daniel Gryniewicz
2005-01-07 1:51 ` David Lang
2005-01-07 5:48 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-03 22:53 ` Bill Davidsen
2005-01-06 3:52 ` Ian Kent
2005-01-06 20:02 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-06 21:29 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-07 0:06 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-07 16:34 ` M. Edward Borasky
2005-01-07 17:25 ` John Richard Moser [this message]
2005-01-09 2:31 ` M. Edward Borasky
2005-01-09 3:01 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-01-09 3:08 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-09 23:02 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 0:30 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-10 1:26 ` Indrek Kruusa
2005-01-10 1:28 ` Dave Airlie
2005-01-10 2:16 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-10 4:51 ` Gene Heskett
2005-01-10 18:27 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 20:11 ` Andi Kleen
2005-01-10 19:55 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 21:08 ` Andi Kleen
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-10 22:19 ` Dave Airlie
2005-01-11 0:54 ` Matt Mackall
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-04 16:07 Indrek Kruusa
2005-01-07 11:07 Nicolas Mailhot
2005-01-07 11:15 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-07 11:17 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-01-07 17:34 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-08 15:45 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-11 7:17 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-11 16:10 ` Alan Cox
2005-01-11 17:36 ` John Richard Moser
2005-01-11 19:59 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2005-01-10 21:32 ` Bill Davidsen
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=41DEC5F1.9070205@comcast.net \
--to=nigelenki@comcast.net \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=znmeb@cesmail.net \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).