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From: Benjamin Segall <bsegall@google.com>
To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
Cc: mingo@kernel.org, vincent.guittot@linaro.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, juri.lelli@redhat.com,
	dietmar.eggemann@arm.com, rostedt@goodmis.org, mgorman@suse.de,
	bristot@redhat.com, corbet@lwn.net, qyousef@layalina.io,
	chris.hyser@oracle.com, patrick.bellasi@matbug.net,
	pjt@google.com, pavel@ucw.cz, qperret@google.com,
	tim.c.chen@linux.intel.com, joshdon@google.com, timj@gnu.org,
	kprateek.nayak@amd.com, yu.c.chen@intel.com,
	youssefesmat@chromium.org, joel@joelfernandes.org, efault@gmx.de,
	tglx@linutronix.de
Subject: Re: [PATCH 03/15] sched/fair: Add lag based placement
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 12:15:12 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <xm26fs2fhcu7.fsf@bsegall-linux.svl.corp.google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230531124603.794929315@infradead.org> (Peter Zijlstra's message of "Wed, 31 May 2023 13:58:42 +0200")

Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org> writes:

> @@ -4853,49 +4872,119 @@ static void
>  place_entity(struct cfs_rq *cfs_rq, struct sched_entity *se, int initial)
>  {
>  	u64 vruntime = avg_vruntime(cfs_rq);
> +	s64 lag = 0;
>  
> -	/* sleeps up to a single latency don't count. */
> -	if (!initial) {
> -		unsigned long thresh;
> +	/*
> +	 * Due to how V is constructed as the weighted average of entities,
> +	 * adding tasks with positive lag, or removing tasks with negative lag
> +	 * will move 'time' backwards, this can screw around with the lag of
> +	 * other tasks.
> +	 *
> +	 * EEVDF: placement strategy #1 / #2
> +	 */

So the big problem with EEVDF #1 compared to #2/#3 and CFS (hacky though
it is) is that it creates a significant perverse incentive to yield or
spin until you see yourself be preempted, rather than just sleep (if you
have any competition on the cpu). If you go to sleep immediately after
doing work and happen to do so near the end of a slice (arguably what
you _want_ to have happen overall), then you have to pay that negative
lag in wakeup latency later, because it is maintained through any amount
of sleep. (#1 or similar is good for reweight/migrate of course)

#2 in theory could be abused by micro-sleeping right before you are
preempted, but that isn't something tasks can really predict, unlike
seeing more "don't go to sleep, just spin, the latency numbers are so
much better" nonsense.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-10-12 19:15 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-05-31 11:58 [PATCH 00/15] sched: EEVDF and latency-nice and/or slice-attr Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 01/15] sched/fair: Add avg_vruntime Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-02 13:51   ` Vincent Guittot
2023-06-02 14:27     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-05  7:18       ` Vincent Guittot
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/fair: Add cfs_rq::avg_vruntime tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11  4:15   ` [PATCH 01/15] sched/fair: Add avg_vruntime Abel Wu
2023-10-11  7:30     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11  8:30       ` Abel Wu
2023-10-11  9:45         ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11 10:05           ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11 13:08       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 02/15] sched/fair: Remove START_DEBIT Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/fair: Remove sched_feat(START_DEBIT) tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 03/15] sched/fair: Add lag based placement Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11 12:00   ` [PATCH 03/15] " Abel Wu
2023-10-11 13:24     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-12  7:04       ` Abel Wu
2023-10-13  7:37         ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-13  8:14           ` Abel Wu
2023-10-12 19:15   ` Benjamin Segall [this message]
2023-10-12 22:34     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-13 16:35       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-14  8:08         ` Mike Galbraith
2023-10-13 14:34     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 04/15] rbtree: Add rb_add_augmented_cached() helper Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 05/15] sched/fair: Implement an EEVDF like policy Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/fair: Implement an EEVDF-like scheduling policy tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-29 21:40   ` [PATCH 05/15] sched/fair: Implement an EEVDF like policy Benjamin Segall
2023-10-02 17:39     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11  4:14     ` Abel Wu
2023-10-11  7:33       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11 11:49         ` Abel Wu
2023-09-30  0:09   ` [PATCH] sched/fair: fix pick_eevdf to always find the correct se Benjamin Segall
2023-10-03 10:42     ` [tip: sched/urgent] sched/fair: Fix pick_eevdf() tip-bot2 for Benjamin Segall
     [not found]     ` <CGME20231004203940eucas1p2f73b017497d1f4239a6e236fdb6019e2@eucas1p2.samsung.com>
2023-10-04 20:39       ` [PATCH] sched/fair: fix pick_eevdf to always find the correct se Marek Szyprowski
2023-10-09  7:53     ` [tip: sched/urgent] sched/eevdf: Fix pick_eevdf() tip-bot2 for Benjamin Segall
2023-10-11 12:12     ` [PATCH] sched/fair: fix pick_eevdf to always find the correct se Abel Wu
2023-10-11 13:14       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-12 10:04         ` Abel Wu
2023-10-11 21:01       ` Benjamin Segall
2023-10-12 10:25         ` Abel Wu
2023-10-12 17:51           ` Benjamin Segall
2023-10-13  3:46             ` Abel Wu
2023-10-13 16:51               ` Benjamin Segall
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 06/15] sched: Commit to lag based placement Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/fair: " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 07/15] sched/smp: Use lag to simplify cross-runqueue placement Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 15:32   ` [PATCH 07/15] " Sebastian Andrzej Siewior
2023-09-13  9:03     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-04  1:17   ` [PATCH] sched/fair: Preserve PLACE_DEADLINE_INITIAL deadline Daniel Jordan
2023-10-04 13:09     ` [PATCH v2] " Daniel Jordan
2023-10-04 15:46       ` Chen Yu
2023-10-06 16:31         ` Daniel Jordan
2023-10-12  4:48       ` K Prateek Nayak
2023-10-05  5:56     ` [PATCH] " K Prateek Nayak
2023-10-06 16:35       ` Daniel Jordan
2023-10-06 16:48   ` [PATCH] sched/fair: Always update_curr() before placing at enqueue Daniel Jordan
2023-10-06 19:58     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-18  0:43       ` Daniel Jordan
2023-10-16  5:39     ` K Prateek Nayak
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 08/15] sched: Commit to EEVDF Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-16 21:23   ` Joel Fernandes
2023-06-22 12:01     ` Ingo Molnar
2023-06-22 13:11       ` Joel Fernandes
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/fair: " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 09/15] sched/debug: Rename min_granularity to base_slice Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] sched/debug: Rename sysctl_sched_min_granularity to sysctl_sched_base_slice tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 10/15] sched/fair: Propagate enqueue flags into place_entity() Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-10  7:10   ` [tip: sched/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [PATCH 11/15] sched/eevdf: Better handle mixed slice length Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-02 13:45   ` Vincent Guittot
2023-06-02 15:06     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-10  6:34   ` Chen Yu
2023-06-10 11:22     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [RFC][PATCH 12/15] sched: Introduce latency-nice as a per-task attribute Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [RFC][PATCH 13/15] sched/fair: Implement latency-nice Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-06 14:54   ` Vincent Guittot
2023-06-08 10:34     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-08 12:44       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-11 23:24   ` Benjamin Segall
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [RFC][PATCH 14/15] sched/fair: Add sched group latency support Peter Zijlstra
2023-05-31 11:58 ` [RFC][PATCH 15/15] sched/eevdf: Use sched_attr::sched_runtime to set request/slice Peter Zijlstra
2023-06-01 13:55   ` Vincent Guittot
2023-06-08 11:52     ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-08-24  0:52 ` [PATCH 00/15] sched: EEVDF and latency-nice and/or slice-attr Daniel Jordan
2023-09-06 13:13   ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-29 16:54     ` Youssef Esmat
2023-10-02 15:55       ` Youssef Esmat
2023-10-02 18:41       ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-05 12:05         ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-05 14:14           ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-05 14:42             ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-05 18:23           ` Youssef Esmat
2023-10-06  0:36             ` Youssef Esmat
2023-10-10  8:08             ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-07 22:04           ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-09 14:41             ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-10  0:51             ` Youssef Esmat
2023-10-10  8:01               ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-10-16 16:50               ` Peter Zijlstra

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