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From: Andi Kleen <andi@firstfloor.org>
To: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
Cc: "Wu Fengguang" <fengguang.wu@intel.com>,
	"Steven Rostedt" <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	"Frédéric Weisbecker" <fweisbec@gmail.com>,
	"Larry Woodman" <lwoodman@redhat.com>,
	"Peter Zijlstra" <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
	"Pekka Enberg" <penberg@cs.helsinki.fi>,
	"Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu" <eduard.munteanu@linux360.ro>,
	"Andrew Morton" <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"KOSAKI Motohiro" <kosaki.motohiro@jp.fujitsu.com>,
	"Andi Kleen" <andi@firstfloor.org>,
	"Matt Mackall" <mpm@selenic.com>,
	"Alexey Dobriyan" <adobriyan@gmail.com>,
	"linux-mm@kvack.org" <linux-mm@kvack.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 5/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:40:31 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20090428074031.GK27382@one.firstfloor.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20090428065507.GA2024@elte.hu>

> I think i have to NAK this kind of ad-hoc instrumentation of kernel 
> internals and statistics until we clear up why such instrumentation 

I think because it has zero fast path overhead and can be used
any time without enabling anything special.

> measures are being accepted into the MM while other, more dynamic 

While the dynamic instrumentation you're proposing 
has non zero fast path overhead, especially if you consider the
CPU time needed for the backend computation in user space too.

And it requires explicit tracing first and some backend 
that counts the events and maintains a shadow data structure
covering all of mem_map again.

So it's clear your alternative will be much more costly, plus
have additional drawbacks (needs enabling first, cannot
take a snapshot at arbitary time)

Also dynamic tracing tends to have trouble with full memory
observation. I experimented with systemtap tracing for my
memory usage paper I did a couple of years ago, but ended 
up with integrated counters (similar to those) because it was
impossible to do proper accounting for the pages set up
in early boot with the standard tracers.

I suspect both have their uses (that's indeed some things
that can only be done with dynamic tracing), but they're clearly
complementary and the static facility seems useful enough
on its own. 

I think Fengguang is demonstrating that clearly by the great
improvements he's doing for readahead which are enabled by these
patches.

-Andi

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Andi Kleen <andi@firstfloor.org>
To: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
Cc: "Wu Fengguang" <fengguang.wu@intel.com>,
	"Steven Rostedt" <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
	"Frédéric Weisbecker" <fweisbec@gmail.com>,
	"Larry Woodman" <lwoodman@redhat.com>,
	"Peter Zijlstra" <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
	"Pekka Enberg" <penberg@cs.helsinki.fi>,
	"Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu" <eduard.munteanu@linux360.ro>,
	"Andrew Morton" <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"KOSAKI Motohiro" <kosaki.motohiro@jp.fujitsu.com>,
	"Andi Kleen" <andi@firstfloor.org>,
	"Matt Mackall" <mpm@selenic.com>,
	"Alexey Dobriyan" <adobriyan@gmail.com>,
	"linux-mm@kvack.org" <linux-mm@kvack.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 5/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:40:31 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20090428074031.GK27382@one.firstfloor.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20090428065507.GA2024@elte.hu>

> I think i have to NAK this kind of ad-hoc instrumentation of kernel 
> internals and statistics until we clear up why such instrumentation 

I think because it has zero fast path overhead and can be used
any time without enabling anything special.

> measures are being accepted into the MM while other, more dynamic 

While the dynamic instrumentation you're proposing 
has non zero fast path overhead, especially if you consider the
CPU time needed for the backend computation in user space too.

And it requires explicit tracing first and some backend 
that counts the events and maintains a shadow data structure
covering all of mem_map again.

So it's clear your alternative will be much more costly, plus
have additional drawbacks (needs enabling first, cannot
take a snapshot at arbitary time)

Also dynamic tracing tends to have trouble with full memory
observation. I experimented with systemtap tracing for my
memory usage paper I did a couple of years ago, but ended 
up with integrated counters (similar to those) because it was
impossible to do proper accounting for the pages set up
in early boot with the standard tracers.

I suspect both have their uses (that's indeed some things
that can only be done with dynamic tracing), but they're clearly
complementary and the static facility seems useful enough
on its own. 

I think Fengguang is demonstrating that clearly by the great
improvements he's doing for readahead which are enabled by these
patches.

-Andi

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  reply	other threads:[~2009-04-28  7:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 137+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2009-04-28  1:09 [PATCH 0/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags (take 4) Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09 ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09 ` [PATCH 1/5] pagemap: document clarifications Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  7:11   ` Tommi Rantala
2009-04-28  7:11     ` Tommi Rantala
2009-04-28  1:09 ` [PATCH 2/5] pagemap: documentation 9 more exported page flags Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09 ` [PATCH 3/5] mm: introduce PageHuge() for testing huge/gigantic pages Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09 ` [PATCH 4/5] proc: kpagecount/kpageflags code cleanup Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09 ` [PATCH 5/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  1:09   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  6:55   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  6:55     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  7:40     ` Andi Kleen [this message]
2009-04-28  7:40       ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28  9:04       ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:04         ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:10         ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28  9:10           ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28  9:15           ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:15             ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:15         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:15           ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:19           ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:19             ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:25             ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:25               ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:36               ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  9:36                 ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  9:36               ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:36                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:57                 ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28  9:57                   ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28 10:10                   ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 10:10                     ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 10:21                     ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28 10:21                       ` Pekka Enberg
2009-04-28 10:56                       ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 10:56                         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 11:09                         ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 11:09                           ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 12:42                           ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 12:42                             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 11:03                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 11:03                     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 17:42                 ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 17:42                   ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28  9:29             ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:29               ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:34               ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28  9:34                 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28  9:38                 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:38                   ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:55                   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  9:55                     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 10:11                     ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 10:11                       ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-04-28 11:05                     ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 11:05                       ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 11:36                       ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 11:36                         ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 12:17                         ` [rfc] object collection tracing (was: [PATCH 5/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags) Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 12:17                           ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 13:31                           ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 13:31                             ` Wu Fengguang
2009-05-12 13:01                             ` Frederic Weisbecker
2009-05-12 13:01                               ` Frederic Weisbecker
2009-05-17 13:36                               ` Wu Fengguang
2009-05-17 13:55                                 ` Frederic Weisbecker
2009-05-17 13:55                                   ` Frederic Weisbecker
2009-05-17 14:12                                   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-05-17 14:12                                     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-05-18 11:44                                 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-05-18 11:44                                   ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-05-18 11:47                                   ` Wu Fengguang
2009-05-18 11:47                                     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 10:18                   ` [PATCH 5/5] proc: export more page flags in /proc/kpageflags Andi Kleen
2009-04-28 10:18                     ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28  8:33     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  8:33       ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28  9:24       ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28  9:24         ` Ingo Molnar
2009-04-28 18:11       ` Tony Luck
2009-04-28 18:11         ` Tony Luck
2009-04-28 18:34         ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 18:34           ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 20:47           ` Tony Luck
2009-04-28 20:47             ` Tony Luck
2009-04-28 20:54             ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28 20:54               ` Andi Kleen
2009-04-28 20:59             ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 20:59               ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 21:17         ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 21:17           ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 21:49           ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 21:49             ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-29  0:02             ` Robin Holt
2009-04-29  0:02               ` Robin Holt
2009-04-28 17:49   ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 17:49     ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-29  8:05     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  8:05       ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29 19:13       ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-29 19:13         ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-30  1:00         ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-30  1:00           ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-28 21:32   ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 21:32     ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 22:46     ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 22:46       ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 23:02       ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 23:02         ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 23:31         ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 23:31           ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 23:42           ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 23:42             ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-28 23:55             ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-28 23:55               ` Matt Mackall
2009-04-29  3:33               ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  3:33                 ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  2:38     ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  2:38       ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  2:55       ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-29  2:55         ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-29  3:48         ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  3:48           ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  5:09           ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  5:09             ` Wu Fengguang
2009-04-29  4:41       ` Nathan Lynch
2009-04-29  4:41         ` Nathan Lynch
2009-04-29  4:41         ` Nathan Lynch
2009-04-29  4:50         ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-29  4:50           ` Andrew Morton
2009-04-29  4:50           ` Andrew Morton

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