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From: Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>
To: Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>
Cc: Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@redhat.com>,
	Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>,
	Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de>,
	Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
	mtk.manpages@gmail.com, rdunlap@xenotime.net,
	linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
	corbet@lwn.net
Subject: Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:11:10 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20090825161110.GP17684@mit.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20090825094244.GC15563@elf.ucw.cz>

It seems that you are really hung up on whether or not the filesystem
metadata is consistent after a power failure, when I'd argue that the
problem with using storage devices that don't have good powerfail
properties have much bigger problems (such as the potential for silent
data corruption, or even if fsck will fix a trashed inode table with
ext2, massive data loss).  So instead of your suggested patch, it
might be better simply to have a file in Documentation/filesystems
that states something along the lines of:

"There are storage devices that high highly undesirable properties
when they are disconnected or suffer power failures while writes are
in progress; such devices include flash devices and software RAID 5/6
arrays without journals, as well as hardware RAID 5/6 devices without
battery backups.  These devices have the property of potentially
corrupting blocks being written at the time of the power failure, and
worse yet, amplifying the region where blocks are corrupted such that
adjacent sectors are also damaged during the power failure.

Users who use such storage devices are well advised take
countermeasures, such as the use of Uninterruptible Power Supplies,
and making sure the flash device is not hot-unplugged while the device
is being used.  Regular backups when using these devices is also a
Very Good Idea.

Otherwise, file systems placed on these devices can suffer silent data
and file system corruption.  An forced use of fsck may detect metadata
corruption resulting in file system corruption, but will not suffice
to detect data corruption."

My big complaint is that you seem to think that ext3 some how let you
down, but I'd argue that the real issue is that the storage device let
you down.  Any journaling filesystem will have the properties that you
seem to be complaining about, so the fact that your patch only
documents this as assumptions made by ext2 and ext3 is unfair; it also
applies to xfs, jfs, reiserfs, reiser4, etc.  Further more, most users
are even more concerned about possibility of massive data loss and/or
silent data corruption.  So if your complaint that we don't have
documentation warning users about the potential pitfalls of using
storage devices with undesirable power fail properties, let's document
that as a shortcoming in those storage devices.

						- Ted

  parent reply	other threads:[~2009-08-25 18:38 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 309+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2009-03-12  9:21 ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 11:40 ` Jochen Voß
2009-03-21 11:24   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-21 11:24     ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 19:13 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-16 12:28   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:26     ` Rob Landley
2009-03-23 10:45       ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-30 15:06         ` Goswin von Brederlow
2009-08-24  9:26           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24  9:31           ` [patch] " Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 11:19             ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:01               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 14:55                 ` Artem Bityutskiy
2009-08-24 22:30                   ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 19:52                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 19:52                   ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 20:24                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 20:52                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 21:08                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 21:25                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:05                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 22:22                             ` Zan Lynx
2009-08-24 22:44                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:34                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 23:42                               ` david
2009-08-24 22:41                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:39                           ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 23:00                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:02                               ` david
2009-08-25  9:32                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:06                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25  9:34                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 15:34                                   ` david
2009-08-26  3:32                                   ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:17                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:29                                       ` david
2009-08-26 13:10                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 13:43                                           ` david
2009-08-26 18:02                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27  6:28                                               ` Eric Sandeen
2009-08-27  6:28                                                 ` Eric Sandeen
2009-11-09  8:53                                               ` periodic fsck was " Pavel Machek
2009-11-09  8:53                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-11-09 14:05                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-11-09 15:58                                                   ` Andreas Dilger
2009-08-30  7:03                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:28                                       ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27  6:06                                         ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27  6:54                                           ` david
2009-08-27  7:34                                             ` Rob Landley
2009-08-28 14:37                                               ` david
2009-08-30  7:19                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:48                                               ` david
2009-08-27  5:27                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25  0:08                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25  9:42                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  9:42                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 13:37                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 13:42                                     ` Alan Cox
2009-08-27  3:16                                       ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:15                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:42                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 22:51                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03                                           ` david
2009-08-25 23:29                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:26                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:40                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:48                                                 ` david
2009-08-25 23:53                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:11                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:16                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:31                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:00                                                         ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26  1:15                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  2:58                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 10:39                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 10:39                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:12                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:28                                                                   ` david
2009-08-29  9:49                                                                     ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:28                                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 20:12                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 20:42                                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 23:00                                                                             ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 23:09                                                                               ` david
2009-09-03  8:55                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03  0:36                                                                               ` jim owens
2009-09-03  2:41                                                                                 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:14                                                                                   ` jim owens
2009-09-04  7:44                                                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-09-04 11:49                                                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 10:28                                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 12:20                                                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 13:54                                                                                           ` Jonathan Corbet
2009-09-05 21:27                                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 21:56                                                                                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-09-02 22:45                                                                           ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 22:49                                                                           ` [PATCH] Update Documentation/md.txt to mention journaling won't help dirty+degraded case Rob Landley
2009-09-03  9:08                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 12:05                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 12:31                                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:35                                                                       ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-29 16:35                                                                         ` david
2009-08-30  7:07                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:01                                                                   ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:23                                                                   ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  7:01                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  7:01                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  5:19                                                               ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 12:24                                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 13:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 13:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 16:54                                                                     ` MD/DM and barriers (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Jeff Garzik
2009-08-27 18:09                                                                       ` Alasdair G Kergon
2009-09-01 14:01                                                                       ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 16:17                                                                         ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-29 10:02                                                                   ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 10:02                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:15                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:16                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:16                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  2:55                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:37                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:37                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  2:53                                                           ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2009-08-26  2:53                                                           ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2009-09-03  9:47                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03  9:47                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  3:50                                                   ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-27  3:53                                                 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 11:43                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 20:51                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 22:00                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 14:49                                                       ` david
2009-08-29 10:05                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 20:22                                                           ` Rob Landley
2009-08-29 21:34                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 16:56                                                             ` what fsck can (and can't) do was " david
2009-09-03 19:27                                                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 22:13                                                     ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  1:32                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28  6:44                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  7:31                                                           ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28  7:31                                                             ` NeilBrown
2009-11-09 10:50                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 11:16                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-01 13:58                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  7:11                                                         ` raid is dangerous but that's secret Florian Weimer
2009-08-28  7:23                                                           ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28 12:08                                                         ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  7:51                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  9:01                                                             ` Christian Kujau
2009-09-02 20:55                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:55                                                             ` david
2009-08-30 14:12                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 14:44                                                                 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-30 16:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 16:35                                                                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:15                                                                     ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 13:16                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:19                                                                         ` Mark Lord
2009-08-31 13:21                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 15:14                                                                             ` jim owens
2009-09-03  1:59                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 11:12                                                                               ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 11:18                                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:34                                                                                   ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 13:50                                                                                     ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:59                                                                                       ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 14:15                                                                                         ` wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 14:26                                                                                           ` Florian Weimer
2009-09-03 15:09                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 23:50                                                                                           ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-04  0:39                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-04 21:21                                                                                           ` Mark Lord
2009-09-04 21:29                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 12:57                                                                                               ` Mark Lord
2009-09-05 13:40                                                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 21:43                                                                                                 ` NeilBrown
2009-09-07 11:45                                                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-07 13:10                                                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2010-04-04 13:47                                                                                               ` fsck more often when powerfail is detected (was Re: wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage) Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 13:47                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 17:39                                                                                                 ` tytso
2010-04-04 17:59                                                                                                 ` Rob Landley
2010-04-04 18:45                                                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 19:35                                                                                                     ` tytso
2010-04-04 19:29                                                                                                   ` tytso
2010-04-04 23:58                                                                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:35                                                                                     ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-31 13:22                                                                         ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 15:50                                                                           ` david
2009-08-31 16:21                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 18:31                                                                             ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 19:11                                                                               ` david
2009-08-30 15:05                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 15:20                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-31 17:49                                                               ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 18:01                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 21:01                                                                   ` MD5/6? (was Re: raid is dangerous but that's secret ...) Ron Johnson
2009-08-31 18:07                                                                 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) martin f krafft
2009-08-31 22:26                                                                   ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 22:26                                                                     ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 23:19                                                                     ` Ron Johnson
2009-09-01  5:45                                                                     ` martin f krafft
2009-08-31 17:49                                                               ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-09-05 10:34                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 10:34                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  7:51                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:46                                               ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible david
2009-08-25 23:08                                       ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:44                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:08                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:15                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  3:29                                               ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 16:11                                   ` Theodore Tso [this message]
2009-08-25 22:21                                     ` [patch] document flash/RAID dangers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:21                                       ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:33                                       ` david
2009-08-25 22:40                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:59                                           ` david
2009-08-25 23:37                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:48                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:06                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:12                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:20                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:26                                                       ` david
2009-08-26  0:28                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:38                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:45                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:21                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:58                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:40                                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:11                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:11                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:44                                                                     ` david
2009-08-26 13:40                                                                   ` Chris Adams
2009-08-26 13:47                                                                     ` Alan Cox
2009-08-26 14:11                                                                       ` Chris Adams
2009-08-27 21:50                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29  9:38                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:24                                                       ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:22                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 14:45                                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-29  9:39                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:47                                                               ` Ron Johnson
2009-08-29 16:12                                                                 ` jim owens
2009-08-25 23:56                                               ` david
2009-08-26  0:12                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:20                                                   ` david
2009-08-26  0:39                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:17                                                       ` david
2009-08-26  0:26                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:44                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:50                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:19                                                       ` david
2009-08-26 11:25                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:37                                                           ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  6:49                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  6:49                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:20                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 22:27                                     ` [patch] document that ext2 can't handle barriers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:27                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  3:34                                 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Rob Landley
2009-08-27  8:46                                 ` David Woodhouse
2009-08-28 14:46                                   ` david
2009-08-29 10:09                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:27                                       ` david
2009-08-29 21:33                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 23:00                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 13:57                             ` Chris Adams
2009-08-25 22:58                             ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:10                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:32                                 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-25 23:32                                   ` NeilBrown
2009-08-24 21:11                       ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 21:11                         ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-25 20:56                         ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:08                           ` david
2009-08-25 18:52                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 14:43                 ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:50               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 18:48                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:48                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:39               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 13:21             ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 13:21               ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 18:44               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:28               ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:28                 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-26  1:34                 ` david
2009-08-24 21:11             ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 21:33               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 18:45                 ` Jan Kara
2009-03-16 12:30   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:03     ` Theodore Tso
2009-03-23 18:23       ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-23 18:23         ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:40     ` Sitsofe Wheeler
2009-03-16 21:43       ` Rob Landley
2009-03-17  4:55         ` Kyle Moffett
2009-03-23 11:00       ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29  1:33   ` Robert Hancock
2009-08-29 13:04     ` Alan Cox
2009-03-16 19:45 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 19:45   ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 21:48   ` Pavel Machek
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     [not found] ` <dddWc-83W-51@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <ddefx-5R-37@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <ddep7-bI-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <ddeyR-iy-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <ddeyR-iy-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <ddeIu-n9-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <ddeSb-th-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <ddoRI-11a-39@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] <ciPTu-7f2-47@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <clrhX-3R1-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <dcEc1-33Z-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <dcFUz-4yN-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <dcHtf-5XC-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <dcNSc-2DU-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <dcOl9-3aC-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <dcOOd-3qM-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <dcOXN-3M5-15@gated-at.bofh.it>

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