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From: Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@redhat.com>
To: Krzysztof Halasa <khc@pm.waw.pl>
Cc: Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>, Mark Lord <lkml@rtr.ca>,
	Michael Tokarev <mjt@tls.msk.ru>,
	david@lang.hm, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>,
	Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>, NeilBrown <neilb@suse.de>,
	Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>, Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>,
	Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de>,
	kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
	mtk.manpages@gmail.com, rdunlap@xenotime.net,
	linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
	corbet@lwn.net
Subject: wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 10:15:07 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4A9FCF6B.1080704@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m3ab1cnn7y.fsf@intrepid.localdomain>

On 09/03/2009 09:59 AM, Krzysztof Halasa wrote:
> Ric Wheeler<rwheeler@redhat.com>  writes:
>
>> We (red hat) have all kinds of different raid boxes...
>
> A have no doubt about it, but are those you know equipped with
> battery-backed write-back cache? Are they using SATA disks?
>
> We can _at_best_ compare non-battery-backed RAID using SATA disks with
> what we typically have in a PC.

The whole thread above is about software MD using commodity drives (S-ATA or 
SAS) without battery backed write cache.

We have that (and I have it personally) and do test it.

You must disable the write cache on these commodity drives *if* the MD RAID 
level does not support barriers properly.

This will greatly reduce errors after a power loss (both in degraded state and 
non-degraded state), but it will not eliminate data loss entirely. You simply 
cannot do that with any storage device!

Note that even without MD raid, the file system issues IO's in file system block 
size (4096 bytes normally) and most commodity storage devices use a 512  byte 
sector size which means that we have to update 8 512b sectors.

Drives can (and do) have multiple platters and surfaces and it is perfectly 
normal to have contiguous logical ranges of sectors map to non-contiguous 
sectors physically. Imagine a 4KB write stripe that straddles two adjacent 
tracks on one platter (requiring a seek) or mapped across two surfaces 
(requiring a head switch). Also, a remapped sector can require more or less a 
full surface seek from where ever you are to the remapped sector area of the drive.

These are all examples that can after a power loss,  even a local (non-MD) 
device,  do a partial update of that 4KB write range of sectors. Note that 
unlike unlike RAID/MD, local storage has no parity on the server to detect this 
partial write.

This is why new file systems like btrfs and zfs do checksumming of data and 
metadata. This won't prevent partial updates during a write, but can at least 
detect them and try to do some kind of recovery.

In other words, this is not just an MD issue, it is entirely possible even with 
non-MD devices.

Also, when you enable the write cache (MD or not) you are buffering multiple 
MB's of data that can go away on power loss. Far greater (10x) the exposure that 
the partial RAID rewrite case worries about.

ric

  reply	other threads:[~2009-09-03 14:16 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 309+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2009-03-12  9:21 ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 11:40 ` Jochen Voß
2009-03-21 11:24   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-21 11:24     ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 19:13 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-16 12:28   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:26     ` Rob Landley
2009-03-23 10:45       ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-30 15:06         ` Goswin von Brederlow
2009-08-24  9:26           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24  9:31           ` [patch] " Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 11:19             ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:01               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 14:55                 ` Artem Bityutskiy
2009-08-24 22:30                   ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 19:52                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 19:52                   ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 20:24                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 20:52                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 21:08                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 21:25                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:05                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 22:22                             ` Zan Lynx
2009-08-24 22:44                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:34                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 23:42                               ` david
2009-08-24 22:41                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:39                           ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 23:00                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:02                               ` david
2009-08-25  9:32                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  0:06                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25  9:34                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 15:34                                   ` david
2009-08-26  3:32                                   ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:17                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:29                                       ` david
2009-08-26 13:10                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 13:43                                           ` david
2009-08-26 18:02                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27  6:28                                               ` Eric Sandeen
2009-08-27  6:28                                                 ` Eric Sandeen
2009-11-09  8:53                                               ` periodic fsck was " Pavel Machek
2009-11-09  8:53                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-11-09 14:05                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-11-09 15:58                                                   ` Andreas Dilger
2009-08-30  7:03                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:28                                       ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27  6:06                                         ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27  6:54                                           ` david
2009-08-27  7:34                                             ` Rob Landley
2009-08-28 14:37                                               ` david
2009-08-30  7:19                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:48                                               ` david
2009-08-27  5:27                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25  0:08                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25  9:42                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25  9:42                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 13:37                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 13:42                                     ` Alan Cox
2009-08-27  3:16                                       ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:15                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:42                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 22:51                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03                                           ` david
2009-08-25 23:29                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:26                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:40                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:48                                                 ` david
2009-08-25 23:53                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:11                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:16                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:31                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:00                                                         ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26  1:15                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  2:58                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 10:39                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 10:39                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:12                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:28                                                                   ` david
2009-08-29  9:49                                                                     ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:28                                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 20:12                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 20:42                                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 23:00                                                                             ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 23:09                                                                               ` david
2009-09-03  8:55                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03  0:36                                                                               ` jim owens
2009-09-03  2:41                                                                                 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:14                                                                                   ` jim owens
2009-09-04  7:44                                                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-09-04 11:49                                                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 10:28                                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 12:20                                                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 13:54                                                                                           ` Jonathan Corbet
2009-09-05 21:27                                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 21:56                                                                                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-09-02 22:45                                                                           ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 22:49                                                                           ` [PATCH] Update Documentation/md.txt to mention journaling won't help dirty+degraded case Rob Landley
2009-09-03  9:08                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 12:05                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 12:31                                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:35                                                                       ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-29 16:35                                                                         ` david
2009-08-30  7:07                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:01                                                                   ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:23                                                                   ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  7:01                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  7:01                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  5:19                                                               ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 12:24                                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 13:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 13:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 16:54                                                                     ` MD/DM and barriers (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Jeff Garzik
2009-08-27 18:09                                                                       ` Alasdair G Kergon
2009-09-01 14:01                                                                       ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 16:17                                                                         ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-29 10:02                                                                   ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 10:02                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:15                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:16                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:16                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  2:55                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:37                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:37                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  2:53                                                           ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2009-08-26  2:53                                                           ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2009-09-03  9:47                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03  9:47                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  3:50                                                   ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-27  3:53                                                 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 11:43                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 20:51                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 22:00                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 14:49                                                       ` david
2009-08-29 10:05                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 20:22                                                           ` Rob Landley
2009-08-29 21:34                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 16:56                                                             ` what fsck can (and can't) do was " david
2009-09-03 19:27                                                               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 22:13                                                     ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  1:32                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28  6:44                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  7:31                                                           ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28  7:31                                                             ` NeilBrown
2009-11-09 10:50                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 11:16                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-01 13:58                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28  7:11                                                         ` raid is dangerous but that's secret Florian Weimer
2009-08-28  7:23                                                           ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28 12:08                                                         ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  7:51                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  9:01                                                             ` Christian Kujau
2009-09-02 20:55                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:55                                                             ` david
2009-08-30 14:12                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 14:44                                                                 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-30 16:10                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 16:35                                                                   ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:15                                                                     ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 13:16                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:19                                                                         ` Mark Lord
2009-08-31 13:21                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 15:14                                                                             ` jim owens
2009-09-03  1:59                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 11:12                                                                               ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 11:18                                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:34                                                                                   ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 13:50                                                                                     ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:59                                                                                       ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 14:15                                                                                         ` Ric Wheeler [this message]
2009-09-03 14:26                                                                                           ` wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage Florian Weimer
2009-09-03 15:09                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 23:50                                                                                           ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-04  0:39                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-04 21:21                                                                                           ` Mark Lord
2009-09-04 21:29                                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 12:57                                                                                               ` Mark Lord
2009-09-05 13:40                                                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 21:43                                                                                                 ` NeilBrown
2009-09-07 11:45                                                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-07 13:10                                                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2010-04-04 13:47                                                                                               ` fsck more often when powerfail is detected (was Re: wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage) Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 13:47                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 17:39                                                                                                 ` tytso
2010-04-04 17:59                                                                                                 ` Rob Landley
2010-04-04 18:45                                                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 19:35                                                                                                     ` tytso
2010-04-04 19:29                                                                                                   ` tytso
2010-04-04 23:58                                                                                                     ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:35                                                                                     ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-31 13:22                                                                         ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 15:50                                                                           ` david
2009-08-31 16:21                                                                             ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 18:31                                                                             ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 19:11                                                                               ` david
2009-08-30 15:05                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 15:20                                                             ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-31 17:49                                                               ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 18:01                                                                 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 21:01                                                                   ` MD5/6? (was Re: raid is dangerous but that's secret ...) Ron Johnson
2009-08-31 18:07                                                                 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) martin f krafft
2009-08-31 22:26                                                                   ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 22:26                                                                     ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 23:19                                                                     ` Ron Johnson
2009-09-01  5:45                                                                     ` martin f krafft
2009-08-31 17:49                                                               ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-09-05 10:34                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 10:34                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  7:51                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:46                                               ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible david
2009-08-25 23:08                                       ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:44                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:08                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:15                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  3:29                                               ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 16:11                                   ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25 22:21                                     ` [patch] document flash/RAID dangers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:21                                       ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:33                                       ` david
2009-08-25 22:40                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:59                                           ` david
2009-08-25 23:37                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:48                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:06                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:12                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:20                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:26                                                       ` david
2009-08-26  0:28                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:38                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:45                                                           ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:21                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:58                                                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:40                                                                 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:11                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:11                                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 13:44                                                                     ` david
2009-08-26 13:40                                                                   ` Chris Adams
2009-08-26 13:47                                                                     ` Alan Cox
2009-08-26 14:11                                                                       ` Chris Adams
2009-08-27 21:50                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29  9:38                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:24                                                       ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:22                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 14:45                                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-29  9:39                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:47                                                               ` Ron Johnson
2009-08-29 16:12                                                                 ` jim owens
2009-08-25 23:56                                               ` david
2009-08-26  0:12                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:20                                                   ` david
2009-08-26  0:39                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  1:17                                                       ` david
2009-08-26  0:26                                                   ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  0:44                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  0:50                                                       ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26  1:19                                                       ` david
2009-08-26 11:25                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:37                                                           ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30  6:49                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30  6:49                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26  4:20                                           ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 22:27                                     ` [patch] document that ext2 can't handle barriers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:27                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27  3:34                                 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Rob Landley
2009-08-27  8:46                                 ` David Woodhouse
2009-08-28 14:46                                   ` david
2009-08-29 10:09                                     ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:27                                       ` david
2009-08-29 21:33                                         ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 23:00                             ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 13:57                             ` Chris Adams
2009-08-25 22:58                             ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:10                               ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:32                                 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-25 23:32                                   ` NeilBrown
2009-08-24 21:11                       ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 21:11                         ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-25 20:56                         ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:08                           ` david
2009-08-25 18:52                     ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 14:43                 ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:50               ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 18:48                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:48                 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:39               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 13:21             ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 13:21               ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 18:44               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:28               ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:28                 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-26  1:34                 ` david
2009-08-24 21:11             ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 21:33               ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 18:45                 ` Jan Kara
2009-03-16 12:30   ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:03     ` Theodore Tso
2009-03-23 18:23       ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-23 18:23         ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:40     ` Sitsofe Wheeler
2009-03-16 21:43       ` Rob Landley
2009-03-17  4:55         ` Kyle Moffett
2009-03-23 11:00       ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29  1:33   ` Robert Hancock
2009-08-29 13:04     ` Alan Cox
2009-03-16 19:45 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 19:45   ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 21:48   ` Pavel Machek
     [not found] <dddMw-7Xt-57@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <dddWc-83W-51@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <ddefx-5R-37@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <ddep7-bI-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <ddeyR-iy-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <ddeyR-iy-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <ddeIu-n9-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <ddeSb-th-29@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <ddoRI-11a-39@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] <ciPTu-7f2-47@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <clrhX-3R1-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]   ` <dcEc1-33Z-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]     ` <dcFUz-4yN-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]       ` <dcHtf-5XC-17@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]         ` <dcNSc-2DU-11@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]           ` <dcOl9-3aC-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]             ` <dcOOd-3qM-33@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found]               ` <dcOXN-3M5-15@gated-at.bofh.it>

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