* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-05-13 16:10 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-05-13 23:27 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (14 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-05-13 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #1 from Alex Deucher <agd5f@yahoo.com> 2011-05-13 09:10:43 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #0)
>
> Mesa 7.10.2 tarball OR Mesa 7.10 branch from git: Correct rendering; no
> crashing.
Can you bisect mesa and see what commits between 7.10 and master broke it?
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
2011-05-13 16:10 ` [Bug 37168] " bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-05-13 23:27 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-05-20 7:36 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (13 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-05-13 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #2 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-05-13 16:27:44 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #1)
> (In reply to comment #0)
> >
> > Mesa 7.10.2 tarball OR Mesa 7.10 branch from git: Correct rendering; no
> > crashing.
>
> Can you bisect mesa and see what commits between 7.10 and master broke it?
debc45bca07a5dfad4199079f080b35c19f00e85 starts the memory leaks (very
noticeable on this commit, just watch gnome-system-monitor's total memory usage
grow by 25 - 100 MB/s)
I got two kernel hard-locks with 8c631cfeae29b5236928f759e222aa35e6e4984c also,
but it doesn't seem to have the memory leak.
Anyway, I'm not sure *exactly* which commit because I was fighting hardlocks
and memory leaks at the same time, and sometimes they are intermittent, but if
you look at the r600g commit series by Marek on or around January 28 - 29, I
think the problem lies somewhere in there. That's my best guess, and it's
certainly more relevant than what I came up with the last time I bisected,
which was the merge of dricore support (and I'm not even using dricore, btw).
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
2011-05-13 16:10 ` [Bug 37168] " bugzilla-daemon
2011-05-13 23:27 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-05-20 7:36 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-07 17:13 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (12 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-05-20 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #3 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-05-20 00:36:13 PDT ---
Followup: I also get the following messages spewed to dmesg every single frame,
regardless if I'm using Mesa 7.10.2 or git master or anything in between. I'm
not sure if this is related to the problem or just noise. But I suspect that
it's unrelated, because I don't experience any symptoms of failure (crash, OOM)
with 7.10.2, and the messages still get spewed. The frequency is about once
every frame, or a bit more often. Maybe as frequently as once per kernel tick
(~1000 Hz timer).
[ 564.159042] DRHD: handling fault status reg 2
[ 564.159248] DMAR:[DMA Write] Request device [04:00.0] fault addr 44bc0000
[ 564.159249] DMAR:[fault reason 05] PTE Write access is not set
The DRHD line appears less frequently, but the DMAR lines are always grouped
together like that. I tried running other GL apps and it doesn't happen there.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2011-05-20 7:36 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-07 17:13 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-09 13:57 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (11 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-07 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #4 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-06-07 10:13:26 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #3)
> Followup: I also get the following messages spewed to dmesg every single frame,
> regardless if I'm using Mesa 7.10.2 or git master or anything in between. I'm
> not sure if this is related to the problem or just noise. But I suspect that
> it's unrelated, because I don't experience any symptoms of failure (crash, OOM)
> with 7.10.2, and the messages still get spewed. The frequency is about once
> every frame, or a bit more often. Maybe as frequently as once per kernel tick
> (~1000 Hz timer).
>
> [ 564.159042] DRHD: handling fault status reg 2
> [ 564.159248] DMAR:[DMA Write] Request device [04:00.0] fault addr 44bc0000
> [ 564.159249] DMAR:[fault reason 05] PTE Write access is not set
>
> The DRHD line appears less frequently, but the DMAR lines are always grouped
> together like that. I tried running other GL apps and it doesn't happen there.
The DMAR and DRHD lines appear to be related to my ASUS P6T Deluxe's broken
BIOS. Even the latest version of this BIOS is unable to handle the Core i7's
VT-d feature correctly. On boot-up, the kernel complains very loudly about my
broken BIOS and the incorrect functioning of the chipset IOMMU; when I disable
VT-d, all of this complaining goes away, as do these DMAR / DRHD faults.
Unfortunately, when disabling VT-d, I still have the memory leak.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-07 17:13 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-09 13:57 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 14:34 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (10 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-09 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
Sven Arvidsson <sa@whiz.se> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
CC| |sa@whiz.se
--- Comment #5 from Sven Arvidsson <sa@whiz.se> 2011-06-09 06:57:06 PDT ---
I tried to reproduce this on my 5670, but couldn't.
I don't get a memory leak or a hard lock, instead the viewer (tried both SL and
Imprudence) segfaults after a short while. This is with current git master,
with 7.10 everything seems to be working.
I will try to bisect and file a new bug in case it's not the same problem.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-09 13:57 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 14:34 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 21:56 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (9 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #6 from Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer <pelloux@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 07:34:43 PDT ---
Created an attachment (id=47812)
View: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=47812
Review: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/review?bug=37168&attachment=47812
proposed patch
I'm having the same memory leak issue (though I kill the game when swapping
starts so I did not experience kernel lock).
The attached patch seems to fix the problem; could you please test it with your
setup ?
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 14:34 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 21:56 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 22:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (8 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #7 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 14:56:30 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #6)
> Created an attachment (id=47812)
View: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=47812
Review: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/review?bug=37168&attachment=47812
> proposed patch
>
> I'm having the same memory leak issue (though I kill the game when swapping
> starts so I did not experience kernel lock).
>
> The attached patch seems to fix the problem; could you please test it with your
> setup ?
Your patch fixes the problem here too! Great job spotting it!!
I am curious, what research process did you undertake in order to isolate the
leak? I would like to learn how to do that. I am a software engineer, but
apparently there's some tool I should know about that would help me narrow down
this kind of leak to a specific part of the code.
Anyway, I think you should really put this patch up for inclusion into git
master. I don't see any adverse effects from the patch, and it definitely
resolves the issue (I've run imprudence for 45 minutes and it's only using 3.8%
of my 6GB of memory, whereas before it would get OOM Killed within 5 minutes).
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (6 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 21:56 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 22:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 22:04 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (7 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #8 from Sven Arvidsson <sa@whiz.se> 2011-06-10 15:02:56 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #7)
> Your patch fixes the problem here too! Great job spotting it!!
Did the patch also solve the kernel hang? If not, it should be easier to track
down now.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (7 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 22:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 22:04 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 22:16 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (6 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #9 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 15:04:01 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #6)
> Created an attachment (id=47812)
View: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=47812
Review: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/review?bug=37168&attachment=47812
> proposed patch
>
> I'm having the same memory leak issue (though I kill the game when swapping
> starts so I did not experience kernel lock).
>
> The attached patch seems to fix the problem; could you please test it with your
> setup ?
Also, I believe I fixed my kernel hardlocks by disabling my motherboard
chipset's buggy IOMMU. The IOMMU for Intel VT-D on the ASUS P6T Deluxe
motherboard is so buggy that it makes VT-d completely unusable on this
motherboard. ASUS seems unwilling to patch their broken BIOS, maybe because the
hardware is just broken.
Anyway, I can't reproduce the kernel hardlock with Linux 3.0-rc2 and the IOMMU
disabled in the BIOS (VT-d set to disabled).
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (8 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 22:04 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 22:16 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 22:28 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (5 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #10 from Sven Arvidsson <sa@whiz.se> 2011-06-10 15:16:25 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #6)
> Created an attachment (id=47812)
View: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=47812
Review: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/review?bug=37168&attachment=47812
> proposed patch
>
> I'm having the same memory leak issue (though I kill the game when swapping
> starts so I did not experience kernel lock).
>
> The attached patch seems to fix the problem; could you please test it with your
> setup ?
The patch also fixes the segfaults I experienced. Same bug, different behaviour
I guess.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (9 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 22:16 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 22:28 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-10 22:30 ` [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak " bugzilla-daemon
` (4 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|NEW |RESOLVED
Resolution| |FIXED
--- Comment #11 from Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 15:28:49 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #10)
> (In reply to comment #6)
> > Created an attachment (id=47812)
View: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=47812
Review: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/review?bug=37168&attachment=47812
> > proposed patch
> >
> > I'm having the same memory leak issue (though I kill the game when swapping
> > starts so I did not experience kernel lock).
> >
> > The attached patch seems to fix the problem; could you please test it with your
> > setup ?
>
> The patch also fixes the segfaults I experienced. Same bug, different behaviour
> I guess.
Hmm. I never got it to segfault, IOMMU or not :) The closest I could get to a
segfault is the kernel sending it SIGKILL, which results in the console saying
"Killed" and dmesg warning you that the oomkiller had to kill the worst RAM
offender.
Anyway, we should really mark this bug as fixed, even though the original bug
title is a *horrible* misnomer for the actual symptom and fix here...
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (10 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 22:28 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-10 22:30 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-11 1:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (3 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-10 22:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary|Regression: Kernel |Regression: Severe memory
|hard-lock when running |leak when running Second
|Second Life |Life
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (11 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-10 22:30 ` [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak " bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-11 1:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-11 1:17 ` bugzilla-daemon
` (2 subsequent siblings)
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-11 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #12 from Marek Olšák <maraeo@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 18:02:02 PDT ---
This should not be marked as RESOLVED before the fix lands in git.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
_______________________________________________
dri-devel mailing list
dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/dri-devel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (12 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-11 1:02 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-11 1:17 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-11 5:40 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-13 14:51 ` bugzilla-daemon
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-11 1:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
Sean McNamara <gm.potato.ul@gmail.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED
Resolution|FIXED |
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (13 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-11 1:17 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-11 5:40 ` bugzilla-daemon
2011-06-13 14:51 ` bugzilla-daemon
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-11 5:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
--- Comment #13 from Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer <pelloux@gmail.com> 2011-06-10 22:40:21 PDT ---
(In reply to comment #7)
> Your patch fixes the problem here too! Great job spotting it!!
cool :)
>
> I am curious, what research process did you undertake in order to isolate the
> leak?
I've mainly used valgrind (massif and memcheck tools) to see where the memory
allocations came from (massif) and if some of them were really memory leak (ie
: memory allocated with with no reference to them).
Those 2 tools pointed to the same place, so I start digging there to understand
how could this be possible, and eventually found a place where a refcounted
resource was mis-released. This part was done mainly with printf logging and
cgdb.
Thanks for testing, I'll propose the patch for inclusion.
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* [Bug 37168] Regression: Severe memory leak when running Second Life
2011-05-13 10:40 [Bug 37168] New: Regression: Kernel hard-lock when running Second Life bugzilla-daemon
` (14 preceding siblings ...)
2011-06-11 5:40 ` bugzilla-daemon
@ 2011-06-13 14:51 ` bugzilla-daemon
15 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: bugzilla-daemon @ 2011-06-13 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dri-devel
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37168
Alex Deucher <agd5f@yahoo.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED
Resolution| |FIXED
--- Comment #14 from Alex Deucher <agd5f@yahoo.com> 2011-06-13 07:51:44 PDT ---
Pushed:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/commit/?id=b19d86701eb6b04a0b7bcf43af06c4ce4fc30299
Thanks!
--
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are the assignee for the bug.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread