[Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Henning Schild]

Hey guys,

i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy that wrote
the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always had this list on
CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up on this list because he is
not subscribed.

Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not something that
should be changed?

Henning

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 09:29:41AM +0100, Henning Schild wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 
> i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy that wrote
> the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always had this list on
> CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up on this list because he is
> not subscribed.
> 
> Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not something that
> should be changed?

The list is subscriber-only, and this is intentional. It avoids spam.

-- 
					    Gilles.
https://click-hack.org

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Henning Schild]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:07:02 +0100
Gilles Chanteperdrix <gilles.chanteperdrix@xenomai.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 09:29:41AM +0100, Henning Schild wrote:
> > Hey guys,
> > 
> > i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy that
> > wrote the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always had this
> > list on CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up on this list
> > because he is not subscribed.
> > 
> > Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not something
> > that should be changed?  
> 
> The list is subscriber-only, and this is intentional. It avoids spam.

I personally think an open source community should first care about
beeing open and find other ways of dealing with spam, but fair enough.

Henning

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Jan Kiszka]

On 2016-02-08 10:18, Henning Schild wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:07:02 +0100
> Gilles Chanteperdrix <gilles.chanteperdrix@xenomai.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 09:29:41AM +0100, Henning Schild wrote:
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy that
>>> wrote the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always had this
>>> list on CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up on this list
>>> because he is not subscribed.
>>>
>>> Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not something
>>> that should be changed?  
>>
>> The list is subscriber-only, and this is intentional. It avoids spam.
> 
> I personally think an open source community should first care about
> beeing open and find other ways of dealing with spam, but fair enough.

FWIW, if we seriously want to work closer with the kernel community,
this policy should be reconsidered. I know it's additional effort to
establish some basic spam filters (unless they already exist anyway),
but there is also quite some value in allowing cross-list postings with
key communities.

Jan

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Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 11:53:06AM +0100, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> On 2016-02-08 10:18, Henning Schild wrote:
> > On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:07:02 +0100
> > Gilles Chanteperdrix <gilles.chanteperdrix@xenomai.org> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 09:29:41AM +0100, Henning Schild wrote:
> >>> Hey guys,
> >>>
> >>> i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy that
> >>> wrote the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always had this
> >>> list on CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up on this list
> >>> because he is not subscribed.
> >>>
> >>> Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not something
> >>> that should be changed?  
> >>
> >> The list is subscriber-only, and this is intentional. It avoids spam.
> > 
> > I personally think an open source community should first care about
> > beeing open and find other ways of dealing with spam, but fair enough.
> 
> FWIW, if we seriously want to work closer with the kernel community,
> this policy should be reconsidered. I know it's additional effort to
> establish some basic spam filters (unless they already exist anyway),
> but there is also quite some value in allowing cross-list postings with
> key communities.

Some kernel mailing lists are "subscriber only" too, probably for
the same reason (the linux arm kernel mailing list for instance).
People have complained about it, but so far it does not seem to be a
problem for the participants to the Linux ARM community.

The spammers know our domain (is there a domain they do not know
anyway), at any time, we have a dozen subscriptions pending with
invalid addresses to lists hosted by xenomai.org. So, if we open the
gates, they are going to use them.

I have no idea how many posts are rejected right now. What we can
propose is to manually moderate the posts by non-subscribers, if
this is too much work, we will revert the change, if it happens that
there is no spam, we will open the list completely.

The xenomai.org domain has some spam filtering already, though I am
not sure the mailing lists do not bypass the spam filtering, before
opening the mailing list, it has to be checked.

Regards.

-- 
					    Gilles.
https://click-hack.org

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Henning Schild]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:37:57 +0100
Gilles Chanteperdrix <gilles.chanteperdrix@xenomai.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 11:53:06AM +0100, Jan Kiszka wrote:
> > On 2016-02-08 10:18, Henning Schild wrote:  
> > > On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:07:02 +0100
> > > Gilles Chanteperdrix <gilles.chanteperdrix@xenomai.org> wrote:
> > >   
> > >> On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 09:29:41AM +0100, Henning Schild wrote:  
> > >>> Hey guys,
> > >>>
> > >>> i have been discussing the huge ioremap problem with the guy
> > >>> that wrote the patch-set introducing the problem. And i always
> > >>> had this list on CC, unfortunately his replies did not end up
> > >>> on this list because he is not subscribed.
> > >>>
> > >>> Is the list indeed configured like that? And is that not
> > >>> something that should be changed?    
> > >>
> > >> The list is subscriber-only, and this is intentional. It avoids
> > >> spam.  
> > > 
> > > I personally think an open source community should first care
> > > about beeing open and find other ways of dealing with spam, but
> > > fair enough.  
> > 
> > FWIW, if we seriously want to work closer with the kernel community,
> > this policy should be reconsidered. I know it's additional effort to
> > establish some basic spam filters (unless they already exist
> > anyway), but there is also quite some value in allowing cross-list
> > postings with key communities.  
> 
> Some kernel mailing lists are "subscriber only" too, probably for
> the same reason (the linux arm kernel mailing list for instance).
> People have complained about it, but so far it does not seem to be a
> problem for the participants to the Linux ARM community.
> 
> The spammers know our domain (is there a domain they do not know
> anyway), at any time, we have a dozen subscriptions pending with
> invalid addresses to lists hosted by xenomai.org. So, if we open the
> gates, they are going to use them.
> 
> I have no idea how many posts are rejected right now. What we can
> propose is to manually moderate the posts by non-subscribers, if
> this is too much work, we will revert the change, if it happens that
> there is no spam, we will open the list completely.

I doubt anyone would want to be a manual non-spam-filter. Without
checking we can assume there is way more spam than content, even
talking about all the list-traffic.

> The xenomai.org domain has some spam filtering already, though I am
> not sure the mailing lists do not bypass the spam filtering, before
> opening the mailing list, it has to be checked.

Most subscribers probably have their own filtering and would not mind a
few spams on the list, but for the sake of the archive it has to be
filtered before mailman sees it.

> 
> Regards.
> 

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Henning,

In message <20160208140259.66e5dc7f@md1em3qc> you wrote:
>
> > Some kernel mailing lists are "subscriber only" too, probably for
> > the same reason (the linux arm kernel mailing list for instance).
> > People have complained about it, but so far it does not seem to be a
> > problem for the participants to the Linux ARM community.

I can comment a bit on this; my experience comes from the U-Boot
mailing list, which currently has some 2,800+ subscribers, and usually
way over 100 messages per day.

> I doubt anyone would want to be a manual non-spam-filter. Without
> checking we can assume there is way more spam than content, even
> talking about all the list-traffic.

U-Boot has always been a subcriber-only list.  The number of messages
that get caught for moderation is small enough that it is not a
time-consuming task.

Please note that the moderator has many options, including to
permanently ACK addresses, so if cross-posting from for example LKML
should be a problem, you can always just permanently ACK  such
addresses when they get stuck in moderation for upon the first
posting.  This is minimal work, and the poster does not have to
subscribe.

Our experience with moderation has always been positive, and we never
really considered to turn this off.


Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,      Managing Director: Wolfgang Denk
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd@denx.de
Common sense and a sense of humor  are  the  same  thing,  moving  at
different speeds.  A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
                                                        - Clive James

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On Mon, Feb 08, 2016 at 08:55:33PM +0100, Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> Dear Henning,
> 
> In message <20160208140259.66e5dc7f@md1em3qc> you wrote:
> >
> > > Some kernel mailing lists are "subscriber only" too, probably for
> > > the same reason (the linux arm kernel mailing list for instance).
> > > People have complained about it, but so far it does not seem to be a
> > > problem for the participants to the Linux ARM community.
> 
> I can comment a bit on this; my experience comes from the U-Boot
> mailing list, which currently has some 2,800+ subscribers, and usually
> way over 100 messages per day.
> 
> > I doubt anyone would want to be a manual non-spam-filter. Without
> > checking we can assume there is way more spam than content, even
> > talking about all the list-traffic.
> 
> U-Boot has always been a subcriber-only list.  The number of messages
> that get caught for moderation is small enough that it is not a
> time-consuming task.
> 
> Please note that the moderator has many options, including to
> permanently ACK addresses, so if cross-posting from for example LKML
> should be a problem, you can always just permanently ACK  such
> addresses when they get stuck in moderation for upon the first
> posting.  This is minimal work, and the poster does not have to
> subscribe.
> 
> Our experience with moderation has always been positive, and we never
> really considered to turn this off.

Hi,

thanks Wolfgang, I enabled moderation (and am the moderator), we
should see rapidly if this works.

Regards.

-- 
					    Gilles.
https://click-hack.org

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Henning Schild]

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 20:55:33 +0100
Wolfgang Denk <wd@denx.de> wrote:

> Dear Henning,
> 
> In message <20160208140259.66e5dc7f@md1em3qc> you wrote:
> >  
> > > Some kernel mailing lists are "subscriber only" too, probably for
> > > the same reason (the linux arm kernel mailing list for instance).
> > > People have complained about it, but so far it does not seem to
> > > be a problem for the participants to the Linux ARM community.  
> 
> I can comment a bit on this; my experience comes from the U-Boot
> mailing list, which currently has some 2,800+ subscribers, and usually
> way over 100 messages per day.
> 
> > I doubt anyone would want to be a manual non-spam-filter. Without
> > checking we can assume there is way more spam than content, even
> > talking about all the list-traffic.  
> 
> U-Boot has always been a subcriber-only list.  The number of messages
> that get caught for moderation is small enough that it is not a
> time-consuming task.

But i guess you filter out spam before mail enters mailman, hence the
low moderation effort.

> Please note that the moderator has many options, including to
> permanently ACK addresses, so if cross-posting from for example LKML
> should be a problem, you can always just permanently ACK  such
> addresses when they get stuck in moderation for upon the first
> posting.  This is minimal work, and the poster does not have to
> subscribe.
> 
> Our experience with moderation has always been positive, and we never
> really considered to turn this off.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Wolfgang Denk
> 

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Henning,

In message <20160209123826.2add02cc@md1em3qc> you wrote:
> 
> But i guess you filter out spam before mail enters mailman, hence the
> low moderation effort.

Yes, there is spamassassin running...

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,      Managing Director: Wolfgang Denk
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd@denx.de
"The number  of  Unix  installations  has  grown  to  10,  with  more
expected."    - The Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd Edition, June, 1972

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 05:30:25PM +0100, Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> Dear Henning,
> 
> In message <20160209123826.2add02cc@md1em3qc> you wrote:
> > 
> > But i guess you filter out spam before mail enters mailman, hence the
> > low moderation effort.
> 
> Yes, there is spamassassin running...

xenomai.org also has spamassassin at SMTP time rejecting mails with
score higher than 10. Since we had one spam today, I wonder if 10 is
may not be a little high. If I may ask, at what score do you reject
posts on the u-boot mailing list?

Regards.

-- 
					    Gilles.
https://click-hack.org

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Wolfgang Denk]

Dear Gilles,

In message <20160209190544.GH5654@hermes.click-hack.org> you wrote:
>
> > Yes, there is spamassassin running...
> 
> xenomai.org also has spamassassin at SMTP time rejecting mails with
> score higher than 10. Since we had one spam today, I wonder if 10 is
> may not be a little high. If I may ask, at what score do you reject
> posts on the u-boot mailing list?

We are using the default: required_score 5.0

I cannot remember that I've ever seen a false positive with this
setting.  But I realize that this is similar to the statement "our
computer has never had an undetected error." :-)

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

-- 
DENX Software Engineering GmbH,      Managing Director: Wolfgang Denk
HRB 165235 Munich, Office: Kirchenstr.5, D-82194 Groebenzell, Germany
Phone: (+49)-8142-66989-10 Fax: (+49)-8142-66989-80 Email: wd@denx.de
"He only drinks when he gets depressed." "Why does he get depressed?"
"Sometimes it's because he hasn't had a drink."
                                     - Terry Pratchett, _Men at Arms_

Re: [Xenomai] mailinglist write access for non-subscribers

[Gilles Chanteperdrix]

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 10:48:46PM +0100, Wolfgang Denk wrote:
> Dear Gilles,
> 
> In message <20160209190544.GH5654@hermes.click-hack.org> you wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, there is spamassassin running...
> > 
> > xenomai.org also has spamassassin at SMTP time rejecting mails with
> > score higher than 10. Since we had one spam today, I wonder if 10 is
> > may not be a little high. If I may ask, at what score do you reject
> > posts on the u-boot mailing list?
> 
> We are using the default: required_score 5.0
> 
> I cannot remember that I've ever seen a false positive with this
> setting.  But I realize that this is similar to the statement "our
> computer has never had an undetected error." :-)

Ok, I have been a bit more cautious and redirected all mails with a
score higher than 50 to a new mailing list named spam@xenomai.org,
so that we can check the archives if a mail gets lost.

If everybody receives this mails, this means that I have not broken
the mailman setup in the same move.

-- 
					    Gilles.
https://click-hack.org