Question: RAID cabinet for home use

Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[Bill Hudacek]

My 2021 Sans Digital TR5UT+B held 5 SATA disks. I had an eSATA 
connection to the host box. It went belly-up a few weeks ago.

After some careful searching, a good replacement seemed to be the Oyen 
Digital Mobius 3R5-EB3-M. Found it for about $300USD.

It was plug-and-play replace. Drives were being addressed by UUID in 
Fedora so no issues at all. It came right up.

However, smart reporting looks horrible even compared to the TR5UT+B 
(which had its own issues).

Here's what the TR5UT+B (old cabinet) reported for one disk in the 
unit (just the header section of smartctl -a):

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Model Family:     Western Digital Red
Device Model:     WDC WD20EFRX-68EUZN0
Serial Number:    WD-WCC4M6HX8XCR
Firmware Version: 0957
User Capacity:    2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
Device is:        In smartctl database [for details use: -P show]

Here's what the Mobius reports now for the same disk:

=== START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
Device Model:     Mobius  DISK1
Serial Number:    WD-WCC4M6HX8XCR
Firmware Version: 0962
User Capacity:    2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P showall]

The disk model is gone. The firmware version is wrong (cabinet instead 
of disk?!). I imagine firmware updates are impossible here.

The rest of it is unimpressive, too. No SCT (TLER) at all - not just 
ERC, but SCT Status, SCT Feature Control, SCT Data Table are all 
missing too.

All the disks in the cabinet are WD20EFRX-68EUZN0. So I believe they 
have SCT/TLER.

What RAID cabinets would be a better alternative? I have 5 drives but 
an 8-bay cabinet would work too.

Obviously, SMART pass-through would be 'nice'. But so would SCT (ERC).

-- 

Kind Regards,

Bill Hudacek
IT Architect
Currently Un-Attached, free & independent

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use (vs "Backplane/Cage/Mobile Rack"?)

[Bill Hudacek]

Roger Heflin wrote on 6/21/21 8:03 PM:
 > I have been using the 4 drives in to 3x5.25 bays and have a cheap 
10x5.25 bay case..  These 4 into 3 bay devices are all direct sata 
connections with minimal electronics and you need 4 sata connections, 
but less than 4 power connectors.  They are hot swap and usually have 
disk activity lights and usually have fans.
 >
 > The brand I have used in the past is IcyDock.
 >
 > There are few components to go wrong so they are really direct sata 
and/or sas connections. with very limited electronics to go wrong, but 
you need one port per drive.
 >

I looked at that '4 into 3 bay device' - seems to be intended for 
internal use, not a cabinet sitting on a shelf.  And - I need five 
bays to be able to just move my drives rather than redesign my storage.

What is your 'cheap 10x5.25 bay case'? My drives are 3.5 but that 
manufacturer may offer either drive adapters or a 3.5-based unit.

I found another product from Icy Dock - 
https://www.amazon.com/ICY-DOCK-MB975SP-B-R1-Tray-less/dp/B06X9P4BYL?th=1 
- but that requires an SATA connection for *each drive* (rather than 
port multiplier). This is more a backplane extender than a RAID cabinet.

I could of course replace the controller that I added-on so long ago - 
the card in the computer is a pedestrian "Marvell 88SE9123 PCIe SATA 
6.0 Gb/s controller" (but it has port multiplier, so 1 eSATA 
connection serves all 5 drives - which is pretty nice).

I've worked with 'octopus' SCSI controllers (in a data center, long 
time ago) with 8 cables coming out the back. I'm not sure what I would 
be able to find for a SATA external cabinet like the 'FlexCage' above. 
Does anyone have any controller suggestions for the FlexCage? With 5 
or more external 'pure' SATA connectors/ports instead of eSATA?

I'll poke around a bit more. Thanks for the tip - I'd never heard of 
Icy Dock or a '4 into 3 bay device' (what an awkward phrase :-) .

/Bill

 > On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bill Hudacek 
<bill.hudacek@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 >     My 2021 Sans Digital TR5UT+B held 5 SATA disks. I had an eSATA
 >     connection to the host box. It went belly-up a few weeks ago.
 >
 >     After some careful searching, a good replacement seemed to be 
the Oyen
 >     Digital Mobius 3R5-EB3-M. Found it for about $300USD.
 >
 >     It was plug-and-play replace. Drives were being addressed by 
UUID in
 >     Fedora so no issues at all. It came right up.
 >
 >     However, smart reporting looks horrible even compared to the 
TR5UT+B
 >     (which had its own issues).
 >
 >     Here's what the TR5UT+B (old cabinet) reported for one disk in the
 >     unit (just the header section of smartctl -a):
 >
 >     === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
 >     Model Family:     Western Digital Red
 >     Device Model:     WDC WD20EFRX-68EUZN0
 >     Serial Number:    WD-WCC4M6HX8XCR
 >     Firmware Version: 0957
 >     User Capacity:    2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
 >     Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
 >     Device is:        In smartctl database [for details use: -P show]
 >
 >     Here's what the Mobius reports now for the same disk:
 >
 >     === START OF INFORMATION SECTION ===
 >     Device Model:     Mobius  DISK1
 >     Serial Number:    WD-WCC4M6HX8XCR
 >     Firmware Version: 0962
 >     User Capacity:    2,000,398,934,016 bytes [2.00 TB]
 >     Sector Size:      512 bytes logical/physical
 >     Device is:        Not in smartctl database [for details use: -P 
showall]
 >
 >     The disk model is gone. The firmware version is wrong (cabinet 
instead
 >     of disk?!). I imagine firmware updates are impossible here.
 >
 >     The rest of it is unimpressive, too. No SCT (TLER) at all - not 
just
 >     ERC, but SCT Status, SCT Feature Control, SCT Data Table are all
 >     missing too.
 >
 >     All the disks in the cabinet are WD20EFRX-68EUZN0. So I believe 
they
 >     have SCT/TLER.
 >
 >     What RAID cabinets would be a better alternative? I have 5 
drives but
 >     an 8-bay cabinet would work too.
 >
 >     Obviously, SMART pass-through would be 'nice'. But so would SCT 
(ERC).
 >
 >     --
 >
 >     Kind Regards,
 >
 >     Bill Hudacek
 >     IT Architect
 >     Currently Un-Attached, free & independent
 >
 >

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[John Stoffel]

>>>>> "Bill" == Bill Hudacek <bill.hudacek@gmail.com> writes:

Bill> My 2021 Sans Digital TR5UT+B held 5 SATA disks. I had an eSATA 
Bill> connection to the host box. It went belly-up a few weeks ago.

Bill> After some careful searching, a good replacement seemed to be the Oyen 
Bill> Digital Mobius 3R5-EB3-M. Found it for about $300USD.

Bill> It was plug-and-play replace. Drives were being addressed by
Bill> UUID in Fedora so no issues at all. It came right up.

Excellent!

Bill> However, smart reporting looks horrible even compared to the
Bill> TR5UT+B (which had its own issues).

I think this all comes down to the eSATA bridge chip used in the
expansion bay.  Not much you can do about it. 

Bill> What RAID cabinets would be a better alternative? I have 5
Bill> drives but an 8-bay cabinet would work too.

I think what you're looking for isn't really a "RAID Cabinet" but an
"Expansion Bay", which has full SATA passthrough.

If you have space inside your main computer, then I would look into an
LSI Logic MTP Fusion SATA/SAS controller with 8 ports.  Then you can
use some of the "IcyDock" expansion bays inside which turns two or
three 5.25" bays into 4-5 3.5" bays.

Each bay has it's own direct connection to the controller, which is a
good thing, since you'll have full access to the drives.

The controllers are cheap on ebay, and you can even use multiple ones
(if you have the room) to give even more redunacy and performance.

Personally, I've been looking into getting a 4U server case with 12
3.5" hot swap bays, but they're all either A) out of stock or B) don't
have USB3 ports on them.  Life is all about tradeoffs.

The problem with IcyDock and other bays like this is A) heat, B) poor
fans, C) price, D) cheap handles, E) reliability.

If you don't hot-swap often, then I think you'll be ok (as will I when
I finally pull the trigger for my own setup) if you are careful when
using them.

I have a USB3/eSATA external case which holds five drives, but it
flakes out if I put in more than two drives.  Ugh!  Doing this well
can require spending some serious money.  I personally just like
getting a big huge case with lots of drive bays and plugging stuff in
directly.  It's my home system, so it can go down when needed.

I'm not at the system, so getting you model number isn't easy.  But
look in the archives of this list, there have been good discussions in
the past year or so on controllers and such.

John

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[antlists]

On 23/06/2021 18:22, John Stoffel wrote:
> If you have space inside your main computer, then I would look into an
> LSI Logic MTP Fusion SATA/SAS controller with 8 ports.  Then you can
> use some of the "IcyDock" expansion bays inside which turns two or
> three 5.25" bays into 4-5 3.5" bays.

If that's the route you're looking at, I'm trying to source a Cooler 
Master N300 case, which takes EIGHT 3.5" drives. Most of them are 
internal so hotswap is out of the question, though.

Dunno what's happened with the cases - have they dropped the line? Or 
has CoVid just exhausted current supplies?

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[Roger Heflin]

resending without html.  Lovely that you seem to have to disable html
on each reply.

 I found an $80 rackmount case that has 2 sets of 3x5.25" bays and
would take 2 of the  4 into 3 3.5" hot swap bays (icy dock or athena
like devices).
https://www.newegg.com/black-istarusa-d-416/p/N82E16811165215

 Outside of that one I did not see much that had 6 external 5.25"
slots and did not cost a huge amount.   The above is empty, no fans,
no PS.

 I have an old ThermalKing M9 that has 9-5.25" external bays and I
have 3 of the 4 into 3's in it giving me 12 usable hot swap 3.5"
drives, but that case appears to no longer be made, and I seem to
remember when I bought it I only found maybe 3 cases similar to it and
a couple of them were 2x the price.

 Now it appears that the most important feature of a case is having
way too many colorful lighted fans.

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[John Stoffel]

>>>>> "Roger" == Roger Heflin <rogerheflin@gmail.com> writes:

Roger> resending without html.  Lovely that you seem to have to disable html
Roger> on each reply.

Roger>  I found an $80 rackmount case that has 2 sets of 3x5.25" bays and
Roger> would take 2 of the  4 into 3 3.5" hot swap bays (icy dock or athena
Roger> like devices).
Roger> https://www.newegg.com/black-istarusa-d-416/p/N82E16811165215

This looks like an interesting case, lots and lots of drive bays...

https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-l4500u-black/p/N82E16811147328?quicklink=true

and it looks like it even has USB3 on the front.  

Roger>  Outside of that one I did not see much that had 6 external 5.25"
Roger> slots and did not cost a huge amount.   The above is empty, no fans,
Roger> no PS.

Roger>  I have an old ThermalKing M9 that has 9-5.25" external bays and I
Roger> have 3 of the 4 into 3's in it giving me 12 usable hot swap 3.5"
Roger> drives, but that case appears to no longer be made, and I seem to
Roger> remember when I bought it I only found maybe 3 cases similar to it and
Roger> a couple of them were 2x the price.

Roger>  Now it appears that the most important feature of a case is having
Roger> way too many colorful lighted fans.

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[Mark Wagner]

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Roger" == Roger Heflin <rogerheflin@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Roger> resending without html.  Lovely that you seem to have to disable html
> Roger> on each reply.
>
> Roger>  I found an $80 rackmount case that has 2 sets of 3x5.25" bays and
> Roger> would take 2 of the  4 into 3 3.5" hot swap bays (icy dock or athena
> Roger> like devices).
> Roger> https://www.newegg.com/black-istarusa-d-416/p/N82E16811165215
>
> This looks like an interesting case, lots and lots of drive bays...
>
> https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-l4500u-black/p/N82E16811147328?quicklink=true
>
> and it looks like it even has USB3 on the front.

Looks like a USB3 update of the case I'm using.  It's basically a
9x5.25"-bay case with three 3x5.25" -> 5x3.5" adapters.  The adapters
it comes with aren't hotswap capable, but it's easy to pull them out
and replace them with ones that are.

-- 
Mark

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[Ram Ramesh]

On 6/25/21 3:04 PM, Mark Wagner wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Roger" == Roger Heflin <rogerheflin@gmail.com> writes:
>> Roger> resending without html.  Lovely that you seem to have to disable html
>> Roger> on each reply.
>>
>> Roger>  I found an $80 rackmount case that has 2 sets of 3x5.25" bays and
>> Roger> would take 2 of the  4 into 3 3.5" hot swap bays (icy dock or athena
>> Roger> like devices).
>> Roger> https://www.newegg.com/black-istarusa-d-416/p/N82E16811165215
>>
>> This looks like an interesting case, lots and lots of drive bays...
>>
>> https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-l4500u-black/p/N82E16811147328?quicklink=true
>>
>> and it looks like it even has USB3 on the front.
> Looks like a USB3 update of the case I'm using.  It's basically a
> 9x5.25"-bay case with three 3x5.25" -> 5x3.5" adapters.  The adapters
> it comes with aren't hotswap capable, but it's easy to pull them out
> and replace them with ones that are.
>
Can we make it a desktop case? I mean, remove the dog ear extension for 
rack mounting?
BTW, there is also a hot swap bay version, but only has 12 bays.

https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-l4412u-black/p/11-147-330

Ramesh

Ramesh

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[John Stoffel]

>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Wagner <carnildo@gmail.com> writes:

Mark> On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 9:43 AM John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org> wrote:
>> 
>> >>>>> "Roger" == Roger Heflin <rogerheflin@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
Roger> resending without html.  Lovely that you seem to have to disable html
Roger> on each reply.
>> 
Roger> I found an $80 rackmount case that has 2 sets of 3x5.25" bays and
Roger> would take 2 of the  4 into 3 3.5" hot swap bays (icy dock or athena
Roger> like devices).
Roger> https://www.newegg.com/black-istarusa-d-416/p/N82E16811165215
>> 
>> This looks like an interesting case, lots and lots of drive bays...
>> 
>> https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rsv-l4500u-black/p/N82E16811147328?quicklink=true
>> 
>> and it looks like it even has USB3 on the front.

Mark> Looks like a USB3 update of the case I'm using.  It's basically a
Mark> 9x5.25"-bay case with three 3x5.25" -> 5x3.5" adapters.  The adapters
Mark> it comes with aren't hotswap capable, but it's easy to pull them out
Mark> and replace them with ones that are.

What do you hate about the case?  And what do you love about it?  

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[John Stoffel]

>>>>> "antlists" == antlists  <antlists@youngman.org.uk> writes:

antlists> On 23/06/2021 18:22, John Stoffel wrote:
>> If you have space inside your main computer, then I would look into an
>> LSI Logic MTP Fusion SATA/SAS controller with 8 ports.  Then you can
>> use some of the "IcyDock" expansion bays inside which turns two or
>> three 5.25" bays into 4-5 3.5" bays.

antlists> If that's the route you're looking at, I'm trying to source
antlists> a Cooler Master N300 case, which takes EIGHT 3.5"
antlists> drives. Most of them are internal so hotswap is out of the
antlists> question, though.

I did more serious looking last fall, but supplies were low and
hot-swap bays start to get expensive and I don't really need them.
Wanting is another story.  :-)

antlists> Dunno what's happened with the cases - have they dropped the
antlists> line? Or has CoVid just exhausted current supplies?

I think Covid has messed up supply lines and such.  It's going to be a
while before things are normal again.

I'm almost tempted to try and goto a local used computer place and see
what they have for big old cases.  

Re: Question: RAID cabinet for home use

[antlists]

On 23/06/2021 21:14, antlists wrote:
> If that's the route you're looking at, I'm trying to source a Cooler 
> Master N300 case, which takes EIGHT 3.5" drives. Most of them are 
> internal so hotswap is out of the question, though.
> 
> Dunno what's happened with the cases - have they dropped the line? Or 
> has CoVid just exhausted current supplies?

It's reappeared on Amazon, so if you're in the UK you can order it. Lead 
time a month ...

Cheers,
Wol