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From: Daniel Colascione <dancol@google.com>
To: Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com>
Cc: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Joel Fernandes <joelaf@google.com>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>, Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>,
	Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@suse.cz>,
	"Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@redhat.com>,
	"libc-alpha@sourceware.org" <libc-alpha@sourceware.org>
Subject: Re: Official Linux system wrapper library?
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 06:22:59 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKOZues5SEESpJU=6MDTrPXTA1KTZFGNQE4Lw4t0fO-WBTU62w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <877ehjx447.fsf@oldenburg.str.redhat.com>

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 3:09 AM, Florian Weimer <fweimer@redhat.com> wrote:
> We had a patch for the membarrier system call, but the kernel developers
> could not tell us what the system call does in therms of the C/C++
> memory model
[snip]
> A lot of the new system calls lack clear specifications or are just
> somewhat misdesigned.  For example, pkey_alloc
[snip]
> getrandom still causes boot delays
[snip]
> For copy_file_range, we still have debates whether the system call (and
> the glibc emulation) should preserve holes or not,
[snip]

These objections illustrate my point. glibc development is not the
proper forum for raising post-hoc objections to system call design.
Withholding wrappers will not un-ship these system calls. Applications
are already using them, via syscall(2). Developers and users would be
better served by providing access to the system as it is, with
appropriate documentation caveats, than by holding out for some
alternate and more ideal set of system calls that may or may not
appear in the future. This resistance to exposing the capabilities of
the system as they are, even in flawed and warty form, is what I meant
by "misplaced idealism" in my previous message. If the kernel provides
a system call, libc should provide a C wrapper for it, even if in the
opinion of the libc maintainers, that system call is flawed.

I agree with the proposals mentioned above to split system interface
responsibility, having glibc handle higher-level concerns like stdio
while punting system call wrappers and other low-level facilities to a
kernel-provided userspace library that can move faster and more
explicitly conform to the Linux kernel's userspace ABI.

  reply	other threads:[~2018-11-11 14:23 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 99+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-11-10 18:52 Official Linux system wrapper library? Daniel Colascione
2018-11-10 19:01 ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-10 19:06   ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-10 19:33     ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-10 19:20 ` Greg KH
2018-11-10 19:58   ` Vlastimil Babka
2018-11-12  2:03     ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-12  2:24   ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-12  2:36     ` Greg KH
2018-11-12 16:08       ` Jonathan Corbet
2018-11-12 20:03         ` Greg KH
2018-12-09  4:38         ` Randy Dunlap
2018-12-10 16:27           ` Jonathan Corbet
2018-12-10 17:39             ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-12-10 23:32               ` Randy Dunlap
2018-11-12  5:46     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-11-11  6:55 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2018-11-11  8:17   ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-11  8:25     ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-11 10:40       ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 10:40         ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 10:30     ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 10:30       ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 11:02       ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-11 12:07         ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 12:07           ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 10:53     ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2018-11-11 11:02       ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 11:02         ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 16:43         ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-13 15:15           ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-11 11:11       ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-11 11:46         ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 11:46           ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 12:09           ` Willy Tarreau
2018-11-12 12:25             ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 12:25               ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 17:36             ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-12 17:53               ` Greg KH
2018-11-12 18:09                 ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-12 18:14                   ` Randy Dunlap
2018-11-12 16:59           ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-14 12:03           ` Adam Borowski
2018-11-14 12:10             ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-14 12:10               ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-16 21:24         ` Alan Cox
2018-11-11 11:09   ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 11:09     ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-11 14:22     ` Daniel Colascione [this message]
2018-11-12  1:44       ` Paul Eggert
2018-11-12  8:11       ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12  8:11         ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 13:19         ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-12 17:24           ` Zack Weinberg
2018-11-12 18:28             ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-12 19:11               ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 19:11                 ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-12 19:26                 ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-12 22:51                   ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-12 23:10                     ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-12 23:26                       ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-12 22:34                 ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-13 19:39           ` Dave Martin
2018-11-13 20:58             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-11-14 10:54               ` Dave Martin
2018-11-14 11:40                 ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-14 11:40                   ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-15 10:33                   ` Dave Martin
2018-11-14 11:58             ` Szabolcs Nagy
2018-11-14 14:46               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-11-14 15:07                 ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-14 15:07                   ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-14 17:40                 ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-14 18:13                   ` Paul Eggert
2018-11-14 14:58               ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-14 17:15                 ` Arnd Bergmann
2018-11-14 18:30                   ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-14 18:30                     ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-14 15:40               ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-14 18:15                 ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-14 18:35                   ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-14 18:47                     ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-15  5:30                       ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-11-15 16:29                         ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-15 17:08                           ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-11-15 17:14                             ` Joseph Myers
2018-11-15 21:00                             ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-15 20:34                       ` Carlos O'Donell
2018-11-23 13:34           ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-23 13:34             ` Florian Weimer
2018-11-23 14:11             ` David Newall
2018-11-23 15:23               ` Szabolcs Nagy
2018-11-24  3:41                 ` David Newall
2018-11-28 13:18               ` David Laight
2018-11-23 20:15             ` Daniel Colascione
2018-11-23 23:19               ` Dmitry V. Levin
2018-11-12 12:45       ` Szabolcs Nagy
2018-11-12 14:35         ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-11-12 14:40           ` Daniel Colascione

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