From: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> To: Alexandre Belloni <alexandre.belloni@bootlin.com>, Peter Hilber <peter.hilber@opensynergy.com> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, virtualization@lists.linux.dev, virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, "virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org" <virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Christopher S. Hall" <christopher.s.hall@intel.com>, Jason Wang <jasowang@redhat.com>, John Stultz <jstultz@google.com>, "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Richard Cochran <richardcochran@gmail.com>, Stephen Boyd <sboyd@kernel.org>, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>, Xuan Zhuo <xuanzhuo@linux.alibaba.com>, Marc Zyngier <maz@kernel.org>, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>, Daniel Lezcano <daniel.lezcano@linaro.org>, Alessandro Zummo <a.zummo@towertech.it>, "Ridoux, Julien" <ridouxj@amazon.com> Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 0/7] Add virtio_rtc module and related changes Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 12:29:38 +0000 [thread overview] Message-ID: <dcd07f0b733a90ac3f3c43a4614967bbb3ef14ad.camel@infradead.org> (raw) In-Reply-To: <202403131118010e7ed5bf@mail.local> [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1841 bytes --] On Wed, 2024-03-13 at 12:18 +0100, Alexandre Belloni wrote: > > I still don't know anything about virtio but under Linux, an RTC is > always UTC (or localtime when dual booting but let's not care) and never > accounts for leap seconds. Having an RTC and RTC driver behaving > differently would be super inconvenient. Why don't you leave this to > userspace? Well yes, we don't need to expose *anything* from the hypervisor and we can leave it all to guest userspace. We can run NTP on every single one of *hundreds* of guests, leaving them all to duplicate the work of calibrating the *same* underlying oscillator. I thought we were trying to avoid that, by having the hypervisor tell them what the time was. If we're going to do that, we need it to be sufficiently precise (and some clients want to *know* the precision), and above all we need it to be *unambiguous*. If the hypervisor says that the time is 3692217600.001, then the guest doesn't actually know *which* 3692217600.001 it is, and thus it still doesn't know the time to an accuracy better than 1 second. And if we start allowing the hypervisor to smear clocks in some other underspecified ways, then we end up with errors of up to 1 second in the clock for long periods of time *around* the leap second. We need to avoid that ambiguity. > I guess I'm still questioning whether this is the correct interface to > expose the host system time instead of an actual RTC. If an RTC device is able to report '23:59:60' as the time of day, I suppose that *could* resolve the ambiguity. But talking to a device is slow; we want guests to be able to know the time — accurately — with a simple counter/tsc read and some arithmetic. Which means *paired* reads of 'RTC' and the counter, and a precise indication of the counter frequency. [-- Attachment #2: smime.p7s --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 5965 bytes --]
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org> To: Alexandre Belloni <alexandre.belloni@bootlin.com>, Peter Hilber <peter.hilber@opensynergy.com> Cc: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, virtualization@lists.linux.dev, virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, "virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org" <virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Christopher S. Hall" <christopher.s.hall@intel.com>, Jason Wang <jasowang@redhat.com>, John Stultz <jstultz@google.com>, "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Richard Cochran <richardcochran@gmail.com>, Stephen Boyd <sboyd@kernel.org>, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>, Xuan Zhuo <xuanzhuo@linux.alibaba.com>, Marc Zyngier <maz@kernel.org>, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@arm.com>, Daniel Lezcano <daniel.lezcano@linaro.org>, Alessandro Zummo <a.zummo@towertech.it>, "Ridoux, Julien" <ridouxj@amazon.com> Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 0/7] Add virtio_rtc module and related changes Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 12:29:38 +0000 [thread overview] Message-ID: <dcd07f0b733a90ac3f3c43a4614967bbb3ef14ad.camel@infradead.org> (raw) In-Reply-To: <202403131118010e7ed5bf@mail.local> [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1841 bytes --] On Wed, 2024-03-13 at 12:18 +0100, Alexandre Belloni wrote: > > I still don't know anything about virtio but under Linux, an RTC is > always UTC (or localtime when dual booting but let's not care) and never > accounts for leap seconds. Having an RTC and RTC driver behaving > differently would be super inconvenient. Why don't you leave this to > userspace? Well yes, we don't need to expose *anything* from the hypervisor and we can leave it all to guest userspace. We can run NTP on every single one of *hundreds* of guests, leaving them all to duplicate the work of calibrating the *same* underlying oscillator. I thought we were trying to avoid that, by having the hypervisor tell them what the time was. If we're going to do that, we need it to be sufficiently precise (and some clients want to *know* the precision), and above all we need it to be *unambiguous*. If the hypervisor says that the time is 3692217600.001, then the guest doesn't actually know *which* 3692217600.001 it is, and thus it still doesn't know the time to an accuracy better than 1 second. And if we start allowing the hypervisor to smear clocks in some other underspecified ways, then we end up with errors of up to 1 second in the clock for long periods of time *around* the leap second. We need to avoid that ambiguity. > I guess I'm still questioning whether this is the correct interface to > expose the host system time instead of an actual RTC. If an RTC device is able to report '23:59:60' as the time of day, I suppose that *could* resolve the ambiguity. But talking to a device is slow; we want guests to be able to know the time — accurately — with a simple counter/tsc read and some arithmetic. Which means *paired* reads of 'RTC' and the counter, and a precise indication of the counter frequency. [-- Attachment #1.2: smime.p7s --] [-- Type: application/pkcs7-signature, Size: 5965 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 176 bytes --] _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-03-13 12:29 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 68+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2023-12-18 7:38 [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH v3 0/7] Add virtio_rtc module and related changes Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [RFC PATCH v3 1/7] timekeeping: Fix cross-timestamp interpolation on counter wrap Peter Hilber 2024-02-19 16:35 ` [tip: timers/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [RFC PATCH v3 2/7] timekeeping: Fix cross-timestamp interpolation corner case decision Peter Hilber 2024-02-19 16:35 ` [tip: timers/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [RFC PATCH v3 3/7] timekeeping: Fix cross-timestamp interpolation for non-x86 Peter Hilber 2024-02-19 16:35 ` [tip: timers/core] " tip-bot2 for Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH v3 4/7] virtio_rtc: Add module and driver core Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH v3 5/7] virtio_rtc: Add PTP clocks Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH v3 6/7] virtio_rtc: Add Arm Generic Timer cross-timestamping Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH v3 7/7] virtio_rtc: Add RTC class driver Peter Hilber 2023-12-18 7:38 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-08 17:03 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-11 18:28 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-11 19:46 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 9:13 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-07 14:02 ` [RFC PATCH v3 0/7] Add virtio_rtc module and related changes David Woodhouse 2024-03-07 14:02 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-08 10:32 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-08 10:32 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-08 12:33 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-08 12:33 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-11 18:24 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-11 18:24 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-12 17:15 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-12 17:15 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 9:45 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 9:45 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 11:18 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 11:18 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 12:29 ` David Woodhouse [this message] 2024-03-13 12:29 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 12:58 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 12:58 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 14:06 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 14:06 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 14:50 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 14:50 ` Alexandre Belloni 2024-03-13 20:12 ` Andrew Lunn 2024-03-13 20:12 ` Andrew Lunn 2024-03-14 9:13 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-14 9:13 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 17:50 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 17:50 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 14:15 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 14:15 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 12:45 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 12:45 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 17:50 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 17:50 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-13 18:18 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-13 18:18 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-14 10:13 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-14 10:13 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-14 14:19 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-14 14:19 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-19 13:47 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-19 13:47 ` Peter Hilber 2024-03-20 17:22 ` David Woodhouse 2024-03-20 17:22 ` David Woodhouse
Reply instructions: You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email using any one of the following methods: * Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client, and reply-to-all from there: mbox Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style * Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to switches of git-send-email(1): git send-email \ --in-reply-to=dcd07f0b733a90ac3f3c43a4614967bbb3ef14ad.camel@infradead.org \ --to=dwmw2@infradead.org \ --cc=a.zummo@towertech.it \ --cc=alexandre.belloni@bootlin.com \ --cc=christopher.s.hall@intel.com \ --cc=daniel.lezcano@linaro.org \ --cc=jasowang@redhat.com \ --cc=jstultz@google.com \ --cc=linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org \ --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=mark.rutland@arm.com \ --cc=maz@kernel.org \ --cc=mst@redhat.com \ --cc=netdev@vger.kernel.org \ --cc=peter.hilber@opensynergy.com \ --cc=richardcochran@gmail.com \ --cc=ridouxj@amazon.com \ --cc=sboyd@kernel.org \ --cc=tglx@linutronix.de \ --cc=virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org \ --cc=virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org \ --cc=virtualization@lists.linux.dev \ --cc=xuanzhuo@linux.alibaba.com \ /path/to/YOUR_REPLY https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html * If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header via mailto: links, try the mailto: linkBe sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is an external index of several public inboxes, see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror all data and code used by this external index.