From: Dan Magenheimer <dan.magenheimer@oracle.com> To: Dave Hansen <dave@linux.vnet.ibm.com> Cc: John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org>, Johannes Weiner <jweiner@redhat.com>, Pekka Enberg <penberg@kernel.org>, Cyclonus J <cyclonusj@gmail.com>, Sasha Levin <levinsasha928@gmail.com>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>, David Rientjes <rientjes@google.com>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, linux-mm@kvack.org, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>, Konrad Wilk <konrad.wilk@oracle.com>, Jeremy Fitzhardinge <jeremy@goop.org>, Seth Jennings <sjenning@linux.vnet.ibm.com>, ngupta@vflare.org, Chris Mason <chris.mason@oracle.com>, JBeulich@novell.com, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> Subject: RE: [GIT PULL] mm: frontswap (for 3.2 window) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:50:01 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview] Message-ID: <f64fa61a-6a93-430a-bc51-53acb5e2e1ea@default> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1320005162.15403.14.camel@nimitz> > From: Dave Hansen [mailto:dave@linux.vnet.ibm.com] > Subject: RE: [GIT PULL] mm: frontswap (for 3.2 window) Thanks Dave (I think ;-) for chiming in. > On Sun, 2011-10-30 at 12:18 -0700, Dan Magenheimer wrote: > > > since they're the ones who will have to understand this stuff and know > > > how to maintain it. And keeping this maintainable is a key goal. > > > > Absolutely agree. Count the number of frontswap lines that affect > > the current VM core code and note also how they are very clearly > > identified. It really is a very VERY small impact to the core VM > > code (e.g. in the files swapfile.c and page_io.c). > > Granted, the impact on the core VM in lines of code is small. But, I > think the behavioral impact is potentially huge since tmem's hooks add > non-trivial amounts of framework underneath the VM in core paths. In > zcache's case, this means a bunch of allocations and an entirely new > allocator memory allocator being used in the swap paths. True BUT (and this is a big BUT) it ONLY affects the core VM path if both CONFIG_FRONTSWAP=y AND if a "tmem backend" such as zcache registers it. So not only is the code maintenance impact very VERY small (which you granted), but there is no impact on users or distros or products that don't turn it on. I also should repeat that the core VM changes introduced by frontswap have remained essentially identical since first proposed circa 2.6.18... the impacted swap code is NOT frequently- changing code. My point in my "Absolutely agree" above, is that the maintenance burden to core VM developers is low. > We're certainly still shaking bugs out of the interactions there like > with zcache_direct_reclaim_lock. Granted, that's not a > tmem/frontswap/cleancache bug, but it does speak to the difficulty and > subtlety of writing one of those frameworks underneath the tmem API. IMHO, that's coming perilously close to saying "we don't accept code that has bugs in it". How many significant pieces of functionality have been added to the kernel EVER where there were NO bugs found in the next few months? How much MERGED functionality (such as new filesystems) has gone into the kernel years before it was broadly deployed? Zcache is currently a staging driver for a reason... I admit it... I wrote zcache in a couple of months (and mostly over the holidays) and it was really the first major Linux kernel driver I'd done. I was surprised as hell when GregKH took it into staging. But it works pretty darn well. Why? Because it is built on the foundation of cleancache and frontswap, which _just work_!! And Seth Jennings (also of IBM for those that don't know) has been doing a great job of finding and fixing bottlenecks, as well as looking at some interesting enhancements. I think he found ONE bug so far... because I hadn't tested on 32-bit highmem machines. Clearly, Seth and IBM see some value in zcache (perhaps, as Ed Tomlinson pointed out, because AIX has similar capability?) But let's not forget that there would be no zcache for Seth or IBM to work on if you hadn't already taken the frontswap patchset into your tree. Frontswap is an ENABLER for zcache, as well as for Xen tmem, for RAMster and (soon according to two kernel developers) possibly also for KVM. Given the tiny maintenance cost, why not merge it? So if you are saying that frontswap is not quite ready to be merged, fine, I can accept that. But there are now a number of features, developers, distros, and products depending on it, so there's a few of us who would like to hear CONCRETE STEPS we need to achieve to make it ready. (John Stoffel is the only one to suggest any... not counting documentation he didn't read, the big one is getting some measurements to show zcache is valuable. Hoping Seth can help with that?) Got any suggestions? Thanks, Dan
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Dan Magenheimer <dan.magenheimer@oracle.com> To: Dave Hansen <dave@linux.vnet.ibm.com> Cc: John Stoffel <john@stoffel.org>, Johannes Weiner <jweiner@redhat.com>, Pekka Enberg <penberg@kernel.org>, Cyclonus J <cyclonusj@gmail.com>, Sasha Levin <levinsasha928@gmail.com>, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org>, David Rientjes <rientjes@google.com>, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>, linux-mm@kvack.org, LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>, Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>, Konrad Wilk <konrad.wilk@oracle.com>, Jeremy Fitzhardinge <jeremy@goop.org>, Seth Jennings <sjenning@linux.vnet.ibm.com>, ngupta@vflare.org, Chris Mason <chris.mason@oracle.com>, JBeulich@novell.com, Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net> Subject: RE: [GIT PULL] mm: frontswap (for 3.2 window) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:50:01 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview] Message-ID: <f64fa61a-6a93-430a-bc51-53acb5e2e1ea@default> (raw) In-Reply-To: <1320005162.15403.14.camel@nimitz> > From: Dave Hansen [mailto:dave@linux.vnet.ibm.com] > Subject: RE: [GIT PULL] mm: frontswap (for 3.2 window) Thanks Dave (I think ;-) for chiming in. > On Sun, 2011-10-30 at 12:18 -0700, Dan Magenheimer wrote: > > > since they're the ones who will have to understand this stuff and know > > > how to maintain it. And keeping this maintainable is a key goal. > > > > Absolutely agree. Count the number of frontswap lines that affect > > the current VM core code and note also how they are very clearly > > identified. It really is a very VERY small impact to the core VM > > code (e.g. in the files swapfile.c and page_io.c). > > Granted, the impact on the core VM in lines of code is small. But, I > think the behavioral impact is potentially huge since tmem's hooks add > non-trivial amounts of framework underneath the VM in core paths. In > zcache's case, this means a bunch of allocations and an entirely new > allocator memory allocator being used in the swap paths. True BUT (and this is a big BUT) it ONLY affects the core VM path if both CONFIG_FRONTSWAP=y AND if a "tmem backend" such as zcache registers it. So not only is the code maintenance impact very VERY small (which you granted), but there is no impact on users or distros or products that don't turn it on. I also should repeat that the core VM changes introduced by frontswap have remained essentially identical since first proposed circa 2.6.18... the impacted swap code is NOT frequently- changing code. My point in my "Absolutely agree" above, is that the maintenance burden to core VM developers is low. > We're certainly still shaking bugs out of the interactions there like > with zcache_direct_reclaim_lock. Granted, that's not a > tmem/frontswap/cleancache bug, but it does speak to the difficulty and > subtlety of writing one of those frameworks underneath the tmem API. IMHO, that's coming perilously close to saying "we don't accept code that has bugs in it". How many significant pieces of functionality have been added to the kernel EVER where there were NO bugs found in the next few months? How much MERGED functionality (such as new filesystems) has gone into the kernel years before it was broadly deployed? Zcache is currently a staging driver for a reason... I admit it... I wrote zcache in a couple of months (and mostly over the holidays) and it was really the first major Linux kernel driver I'd done. I was surprised as hell when GregKH took it into staging. But it works pretty darn well. Why? Because it is built on the foundation of cleancache and frontswap, which _just work_!! And Seth Jennings (also of IBM for those that don't know) has been doing a great job of finding and fixing bottlenecks, as well as looking at some interesting enhancements. I think he found ONE bug so far... because I hadn't tested on 32-bit highmem machines. Clearly, Seth and IBM see some value in zcache (perhaps, as Ed Tomlinson pointed out, because AIX has similar capability?) But let's not forget that there would be no zcache for Seth or IBM to work on if you hadn't already taken the frontswap patchset into your tree. Frontswap is an ENABLER for zcache, as well as for Xen tmem, for RAMster and (soon according to two kernel developers) possibly also for KVM. Given the tiny maintenance cost, why not merge it? So if you are saying that frontswap is not quite ready to be merged, fine, I can accept that. But there are now a number of features, developers, distros, and products depending on it, so there's a few of us who would like to hear CONCRETE STEPS we need to achieve to make it ready. (John Stoffel is the only one to suggest any... not counting documentation he didn't read, the big one is getting some measurements to show zcache is valuable. Hoping Seth can help with that?) Got any suggestions? Thanks, Dan -- To unsubscribe, send a message with 'unsubscribe linux-mm' in the body to majordomo@kvack.org. For more info on Linux MM, see: http://www.linux-mm.org/ . Fight unfair telecom internet charges in Canada: sign http://stopthemeter.ca/ Don't email: <a href=mailto:"dont@kvack.org"> email@kvack.org </a>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2011-10-30 21:50 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 175+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2011-10-27 18:52 [GIT PULL] mm: frontswap (for 3.2 window) Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-27 18:52 ` Dan Magenheimer [not found] ` <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110271318220.7639@chino.kir.corp.google.com20111027211157.GA1199@infradead.org> 2011-10-27 19:30 ` Kurt Hackel 2011-10-27 19:30 ` Kurt Hackel 2011-10-27 20:18 ` David Rientjes 2011-10-27 20:18 ` David Rientjes 2011-10-27 21:11 ` Christoph Hellwig 2011-10-27 21:11 ` Christoph Hellwig 2011-10-27 21:49 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-27 21:49 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-27 21:52 ` Christoph Hellwig 2011-10-27 21:52 ` Christoph Hellwig 2011-10-27 22:21 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-27 22:21 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 7:12 ` Sasha Levin 2011-10-28 7:12 ` Sasha Levin [not found] ` <CAOzbF4fnD=CGR-nizZoBxmFSuAjFC3uAHf3wDj5RLneJvJhrOQ@mail.gmail.comCAOJsxLGOTw7rtFnqeHvzFxifA0QgPVDHZzrEo=-uB2Gkrvp=JQ@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <552d2067-474d-4aef-a9a4-89e5fd8ef84f@default20111031181651.GF3466@redhat.com> [not found] ` <60592afd-97aa-4eaf-b86b-f6695d31c7f1@default20111031223717.GI3466@redhat.com> [not found] ` <1b2e4f74-7058-4712-85a7-84198723e3ee@default20111101012017.GJ3466@redhat.com> [not found] ` <6a9db6d9-6f13-4855-b026-ba668c29ddfa@default20111101180702.GL3466@redhat.com> [not found] ` <b8a0ca71-a31b-488a-9a92-2502d4a6e9bf@default20111102013122.GA18879@redhat.com> 2011-10-28 7:30 ` Cyclonus J 2011-10-28 7:30 ` Cyclonus J 2011-10-28 14:26 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 14:26 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 15:21 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 15:21 ` Dan Magenheimer [not found] ` <CAOJsxLEE-qf9me1SAZLFiEVhHVnDh7BDrSx1+abe9R4mfkhD=g@mail.gmail.com20111028163053.GC1319@redhat.com> 2011-10-28 15:36 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 15:36 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 16:30 ` Johannes Weiner 2011-10-28 16:30 ` Johannes Weiner 2011-10-28 17:01 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 17:01 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 17:07 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 17:07 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 18:28 ` John Stoffel 2011-10-28 18:28 ` John Stoffel 2011-10-28 20:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 20:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 20:52 ` John Stoffel 2011-10-28 20:52 ` John Stoffel 2011-10-30 19:18 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-30 19:18 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-30 20:06 ` Dave Hansen 2011-10-30 20:06 ` Dave Hansen 2011-10-30 21:50 ` Dan Magenheimer [this message] 2011-10-30 21:50 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 19:45 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 19:45 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 20:45 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:45 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-06 22:32 ` Valdis.Kletnieks 2011-11-08 12:15 ` Ed Tomlinson 2011-11-08 12:15 ` Ed Tomlinson 2011-10-31 8:12 ` James Bottomley 2011-10-31 8:12 ` James Bottomley 2011-10-31 15:39 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 15:39 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 10:13 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-01 10:13 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-01 18:10 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 18:10 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 18:48 ` Dave Hansen 2011-11-01 18:48 ` Dave Hansen 2011-11-01 21:32 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 21:32 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 7:44 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-02 7:44 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-02 19:39 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 19:39 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 18:44 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 18:44 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-30 21:47 ` Johannes Weiner 2011-10-30 21:47 ` Johannes Weiner 2011-10-30 23:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-30 23:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 18:34 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 18:34 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 21:45 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 21:45 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 16:37 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 16:37 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 16:59 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 16:59 ` Pekka Enberg 2011-10-28 17:20 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-28 17:20 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 18:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 18:16 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 20:58 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 20:58 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 22:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 22:37 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-10-31 23:36 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 23:36 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 1:20 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-01 1:20 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-01 16:41 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 16:41 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 18:07 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-01 18:07 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-01 21:00 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 21:00 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 1:31 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-02 1:31 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-02 19:06 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 19:06 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-03 0:32 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-03 0:32 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-03 22:29 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-03 22:29 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:51 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 20:51 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 21:14 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 21:14 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-15 16:29 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-15 16:29 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-15 17:33 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge 2011-11-15 17:33 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge 2011-11-16 14:49 ` Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk 2011-11-16 14:49 ` Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk 2011-11-01 10:16 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-01 10:16 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-01 18:21 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 18:21 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 8:14 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-02 8:14 ` James Bottomley 2011-11-02 20:08 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:08 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-03 10:30 ` Theodore Tso 2011-11-03 10:30 ` Theodore Tso 2011-11-03 14:59 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-03 14:59 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 15:44 ` Avi Kivity 2011-11-02 15:44 ` Avi Kivity 2011-11-02 16:02 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-02 16:02 ` Andrea Arcangeli 2011-11-02 16:13 ` Avi Kivity 2011-11-02 16:13 ` Avi Kivity 2011-11-02 20:27 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:27 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 20:19 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-27 21:44 ` Avi Miller 2011-10-27 21:44 ` Avi Miller 2011-10-27 22:33 ` Brian King 2011-10-27 22:33 ` Brian King 2011-10-28 5:17 ` Nitin Gupta 2011-10-28 5:17 ` Nitin Gupta 2011-10-29 13:43 ` Ed Tomlinson 2011-10-29 13:43 ` Ed Tomlinson 2011-10-31 8:13 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-10-31 8:13 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-10-31 16:38 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-10-31 16:38 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 0:50 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-01 0:50 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-01 15:25 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 15:25 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 21:43 ` Andrew Morton 2011-11-01 21:43 ` Andrew Morton 2011-11-01 22:25 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-01 22:25 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 21:03 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 21:03 ` Rik van Riel 2011-11-02 21:42 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 21:42 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 1:14 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-02 1:14 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-02 15:12 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-02 15:12 ` Dan Magenheimer 2011-11-04 4:19 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-04 4:19 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki 2011-11-03 16:49 ` Jan Beulich 2011-11-03 16:49 ` Jan Beulich 2011-11-04 0:54 ` Andrew Morton 2011-11-04 0:54 ` Andrew Morton 2011-11-04 8:49 ` Jan Beulich 2011-11-04 8:49 ` Jan Beulich 2011-11-04 12:37 Clayton Weaver 2011-11-05 17:08 Clayton Weaver
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