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From: "Martin K. Petersen" <martin.petersen@oracle.com>
To: Tim Walker <tim.t.walker@seagate.com>
Cc: "Martin K. Petersen" <martin.petersen@oracle.com>,
	Damien Le Moal <Damien.LeMoal@wdc.com>,
	Ming Lei <ming.lei@redhat.com>,
	"linux-block\@vger.kernel.org" <linux-block@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-scsi <linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org>,
	"linux-nvme\@lists.infradead.org"
	<linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org>
Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] NVMe HDD
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:17:00 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <yq1r1yzqfyb.fsf@oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANo=J16cDBUDWdV7tdY33UO0UT0t-g7jRfMVTxZpePvLew7Mxg@mail.gmail.com> (Tim Walker's message of "Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:12:48 -0500")


Tim,

> SAS currently supports QD256, but the general consensus is that most
> customers don't run anywhere near that deep. Does it help the system
> for the HD to report a limited (256) max queue depth, or is it really
> up to the system to decide many commands to queue?

People often artificially lower the queue depth to avoid timeouts. The
default timeout is 30 seconds from an I/O is queued. However, many
enterprise applications set the timeout to 3-5 seconds. Which means that
with deep queues you'll quickly start seeing timeouts if a drive
temporarily is having issues keeping up (media errors, excessive spare
track seeks, etc.).

Well-behaved devices will return QF/TSF if they have transient resource
starvation or exceed internal QoS limits. QF will cause the SCSI stack
to reduce the number of I/Os in flight. This allows the drive to recover
from its congested state and reduces the potential of application and
filesystem timeouts.

> Regarding number of SQ pairs, I think HDD would function well with
> only one. Some thoughts on why we would want >1:

> -A priority-based SQ servicing algorithm that would permit
> low-priority commands to be queued in a dedicated SQ.
> -The host may want an SQ per actuator for multi-actuator devices.

That's fine. I think we're just saying that the common practice of
allocating very deep queues for each CPU core in the system will lead to
problems since the host will inevitably be able to queue much more I/O
than the drive can realistically complete.

> Since NVMe doesn't guarantee command execution order, it seems the
> zoned block version of an NVME HDD would need to support zone append.
> Do you agree?

Absolutely!

-- 
Martin K. Petersen	Oracle Linux Engineering

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Martin K. Petersen" <martin.petersen@oracle.com>
To: Tim Walker <tim.t.walker@seagate.com>
Cc: Damien Le Moal <Damien.LeMoal@wdc.com>,
	"Martin K. Petersen" <martin.petersen@oracle.com>,
	linux-scsi <linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org>,
	"linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org" <linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org>,
	Ming Lei <ming.lei@redhat.com>,
	"linux-block@vger.kernel.org" <linux-block@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] NVMe HDD
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 23:17:00 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <yq1r1yzqfyb.fsf@oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANo=J16cDBUDWdV7tdY33UO0UT0t-g7jRfMVTxZpePvLew7Mxg@mail.gmail.com> (Tim Walker's message of "Wed, 12 Feb 2020 22:12:48 -0500")


Tim,

> SAS currently supports QD256, but the general consensus is that most
> customers don't run anywhere near that deep. Does it help the system
> for the HD to report a limited (256) max queue depth, or is it really
> up to the system to decide many commands to queue?

People often artificially lower the queue depth to avoid timeouts. The
default timeout is 30 seconds from an I/O is queued. However, many
enterprise applications set the timeout to 3-5 seconds. Which means that
with deep queues you'll quickly start seeing timeouts if a drive
temporarily is having issues keeping up (media errors, excessive spare
track seeks, etc.).

Well-behaved devices will return QF/TSF if they have transient resource
starvation or exceed internal QoS limits. QF will cause the SCSI stack
to reduce the number of I/Os in flight. This allows the drive to recover
from its congested state and reduces the potential of application and
filesystem timeouts.

> Regarding number of SQ pairs, I think HDD would function well with
> only one. Some thoughts on why we would want >1:

> -A priority-based SQ servicing algorithm that would permit
> low-priority commands to be queued in a dedicated SQ.
> -The host may want an SQ per actuator for multi-actuator devices.

That's fine. I think we're just saying that the common practice of
allocating very deep queues for each CPU core in the system will lead to
problems since the host will inevitably be able to queue much more I/O
than the drive can realistically complete.

> Since NVMe doesn't guarantee command execution order, it seems the
> zoned block version of an NVME HDD would need to support zone append.
> Do you agree?

Absolutely!

-- 
Martin K. Petersen	Oracle Linux Engineering

_______________________________________________
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linux-nvme@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-nvme

  reply	other threads:[~2020-02-13  4:17 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 64+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-02-10 19:20 [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] NVMe HDD Tim Walker
2020-02-10 19:20 ` Tim Walker
2020-02-10 20:43 ` Keith Busch
2020-02-10 20:43   ` Keith Busch
2020-02-10 22:25   ` Finn Thain
2020-02-10 22:25     ` Finn Thain
2020-02-11 12:28 ` Ming Lei
2020-02-11 12:28   ` Ming Lei
2020-02-11 19:01   ` Tim Walker
2020-02-11 19:01     ` Tim Walker
2020-02-12  1:47     ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-12  1:47       ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-12 22:03       ` Ming Lei
2020-02-12 22:03         ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13  2:40         ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-13  2:40           ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-13  7:53           ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13  7:53             ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13  8:24             ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-13  8:24               ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-13  8:34               ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13  8:34                 ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13 16:30                 ` Keith Busch
2020-02-13 16:30                   ` Keith Busch
2020-02-14  0:40                   ` Ming Lei
2020-02-14  0:40                     ` Ming Lei
2020-02-13  3:02       ` Martin K. Petersen
2020-02-13  3:02         ` Martin K. Petersen
2020-02-13  3:12         ` Tim Walker
2020-02-13  3:12           ` Tim Walker
2020-02-13  4:17           ` Martin K. Petersen [this message]
2020-02-13  4:17             ` Martin K. Petersen
2020-02-14  7:32             ` Hannes Reinecke
2020-02-14  7:32               ` Hannes Reinecke
2020-02-14 14:40               ` Keith Busch
2020-02-14 14:40                 ` Keith Busch
2020-02-14 16:04                 ` Hannes Reinecke
2020-02-14 16:04                   ` Hannes Reinecke
2020-02-14 17:05                   ` Keith Busch
2020-02-14 17:05                     ` Keith Busch
2020-02-18 15:54                     ` Tim Walker
2020-02-18 15:54                       ` Tim Walker
2020-02-18 17:41                       ` Keith Busch
2020-02-18 17:41                         ` Keith Busch
2020-02-18 17:52                         ` James Smart
2020-02-18 17:52                           ` James Smart
2020-02-19  1:31                         ` Ming Lei
2020-02-19  1:31                           ` Ming Lei
2020-02-19  1:53                           ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-19  1:53                             ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-19  2:15                             ` Ming Lei
2020-02-19  2:15                               ` Ming Lei
2020-02-19  2:32                               ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-19  2:32                                 ` Damien Le Moal
2020-02-19  2:56                                 ` Tim Walker
2020-02-19  2:56                                   ` Tim Walker
2020-02-19 16:28                                   ` Tim Walker
2020-02-19 16:28                                     ` Tim Walker
2020-02-19 20:50                                     ` Keith Busch
2020-02-19 20:50                                       ` Keith Busch
2020-02-14  0:35         ` Ming Lei
2020-02-14  0:35           ` Ming Lei
2020-02-12 21:52     ` Ming Lei
2020-02-12 21:52       ` Ming Lei

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