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From: Jani Nikula <jani.nikula@linux.intel.com>
To: Daniel Vetter <daniel@ffwll.ch>, Max Staudt <mstaudt@suse.de>
Cc: linux-fbdev@vger.kernel.org, michal@markovi.net,
	b.zolnierkie@samsung.com, sndirsch@suse.com, oneukum@suse.com,
	tiwai@suse.com, dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, bernhard.rosenkranzer@linaro.org,
	philm@manjaro.org
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v2 00/13] Kernel based bootsplash
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 19:13:39 +0200
Message-ID: <878tdlzccc.fsf@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20171219161630.GI26573@phenom.ffwll.local>

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017, Daniel Vetter <daniel@ffwll.ch> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 08:47:42PM +0100, Max Staudt wrote:
>> Dear fbdev and fbcon developers,
>> 
>> Thank you very much for your input for the first patch series.
>> 
>> I've included your feedback into this second roll, and kindly ask for
>> your opinion on the new patch series.
>
> Ok I've realized that my assumptions about why you need this aren't
> holding up.
>
> So from reading these patches it sounded like you want an in-kernel boot
> splash because that would be on the display faster than a userspace one
> like plymouth. That's the only reasons I can see for this (if there's
> another good justification, please bring it up).
>
> I only know of very embedded setups (tv top boxes, in vehicle
> entertainment) where that kind of "time to first image" really matters,
> and those systems:
> - have a real hw kms driver
> - don't have fbcon or fbdev emulation enabled (except for some closed
>   source stacks that are a bit slow to adapt to the new world, and we
>   don't care about those in gfx).
>
> But from discussions it sounds like you very much want to use this on
> servers, which makes 0 sense to me. On a server something like plymouth
> should do a perfectly reasonable job.
>
> So, why exactly do we need this?

Okay, I'll take another step back from the implementation and most of
the discussion here, and look at what *I* would like to see on screen
when I have my user hat on and my kernel developer hat securely stowed
away.

I think the first issue is the boot manager (e.g. grub) messing up
whatever the BIOS or GOP or whatever drew. If I don't touch any buttons,
I'd prefer the Lenovo or VAIO or NUC or whatever logo stay there. IIRC
some BIOSes let you set up your own splash if you like, though that's
not really relevant for me. So already the boot manager takeover is a
problem.

The next issue is the framebuffer driver takeover. It's not unlike the
above, just one step further. If you like your grub image to stay there,
let it stay there. (Or, if the boot manager was nice enough to not mess
up the screen, let the BIOS image stay there.) All the way to KMS and
userspace.

IMHO the user friendly experience is already gone by the time we reach
any kernel/userspace bootsplash. We want our command-line tools to STFU
if they don't have anything interesting to say. As a user, 99.99+% of
the time I don't care what grub or dmesg have to say.

Of course, with the kernel developer hat on, I want all of the clues
every time in case something goes wrong. But this shouldn't have to be
mutually exclusive.


BR,
Jani.


-- 
Jani Nikula, Intel Open Source Technology Center
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  parent reply index

Thread overview: 68+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2017-12-13 19:47 Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 01/13] bootsplash: Initial implementation showing black screen Max Staudt
2017-12-13 23:55   ` Randy Dunlap
2017-12-14 15:37     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 02/13] bootsplash: Add file reading and picture rendering Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 03/13] bootsplash: Flush framebuffer after drawing Max Staudt
2017-12-13 21:35   ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-14 15:36     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 12:23       ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 13:34         ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 13:57           ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 14:07             ` Oliver Neukum
2017-12-31 12:53               ` Alan Cox
2018-01-03 18:04                 ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 15:41             ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 16:02               ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 16:23                 ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20  9:45                   ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 16:09               ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 16:26                 ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 21:01               ` Ray Strode
2017-12-20 13:14                 ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 15:35                   ` Ray Strode
2017-12-20 16:52                     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 04/13] bootsplash: Add corner positioning Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 05/13] bootsplash: Add animation support Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 06/13] vt: Redraw bootsplash fully on console_unblank Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 07/13] vt: Add keyboard hook to disable bootsplash Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 08/13] sysrq: Disable bootsplash on SAK Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 09/13] fbcon: Disable bootsplash on oops Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 10/13] Documentation: Add bootsplash main documentation Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 11/13] bootsplash: sysfs entries to load and unload files Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 12/13] tools/bootsplash: Add a basic splash file creation tool Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:47 ` [RFC PATCH v2 13/13] tools/bootsplash: Add script and data to create sample file Max Staudt
2017-12-13 19:52 ` [RFC PATCH v2 00/13] Kernel based bootsplash Max Staudt
2017-12-19 16:16 ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 17:04   ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 17:26     ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-19 18:40       ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20  9:43         ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-20 10:06           ` Neil Armstrong
2017-12-20 10:14             ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-20 14:55               ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 15:11                 ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-20 15:19                   ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-20 15:22                     ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-20 16:23                     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 16:15                   ` Max Staudt
2017-12-31 12:44                   ` Alan Cox
2018-01-03 18:00                     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 14:16             ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 14:10           ` Max Staudt
2017-12-31 12:35         ` Alan Cox
2018-01-03 17:56           ` Max Staudt
2017-12-19 20:30     ` Ray Strode
2017-12-20 13:03       ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 15:21         ` Ray Strode
2017-12-20 16:44           ` Max Staudt
2017-12-21 14:51             ` Ray Strode
2017-12-21 16:32               ` Max Staudt
2017-12-20 11:08   ` Johannes Thumshirn
2017-12-20 11:22     ` Daniel Stone
2017-12-20 12:48       ` Johannes Thumshirn
2017-12-29 17:13   ` Jani Nikula [this message]
2018-01-03 17:38     ` Max Staudt
2017-12-21  9:48 ` Daniel Vetter
2017-12-21 16:52   ` Max Staudt
2017-12-21 15:00 ` Philip Müller

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