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* Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
@ 2019-04-01 16:19 Andrea Laisa
  2019-04-01 17:16 ` Greg KH
  2019-04-01 19:49 ` Valdis Klētnieks
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Laisa @ 2019-04-01 16:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

Hi!

I'm a student that want to do a google summer of code with you during 
this summer.

My idea is to write a Linux driver for a proprietary network protocol 
used by the outdoor Gemtek antennas(which are essentially a LTE modem) 
to communicate over ethernet+LLC to the indoor Gemtek Access Points. My 
goal is to allow anyone to use any Linux-based router (like a Turris 
Omnia/openwrt) instead of a Gemtek Access Point.

I think it's a great idea but I have some questions.

     -In which area my idea is located? networking?
     -Should the idea implemented as Linux driver or as userspace program?


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* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
  2019-04-01 16:19 Questions about my idea (for gsoc) Andrea Laisa
@ 2019-04-01 17:16 ` Greg KH
       [not found]   ` <4d84791d-c866-da7c-7036-27b217a8062b@studenti.unimi.it>
  2019-04-01 19:49 ` Valdis Klētnieks
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Greg KH @ 2019-04-01 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrea Laisa; +Cc: kernelnewbies

On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 06:19:12PM +0200, Andrea Laisa wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I'm a student that want to do a google summer of code with you during this
> summer.

Who is "you" here?  What project specifically are you looking to apply
to that asked you to post on the kernelnewbies list?

> My idea is to write a Linux driver for a proprietary network protocol used
> by the outdoor Gemtek antennas(which are essentially a LTE modem) to
> communicate over ethernet+LLC to the indoor Gemtek Access Points. My goal is
> to allow anyone to use any Linux-based router (like a Turris Omnia/openwrt)
> instead of a Gemtek Access Point.
> 
> I think it's a great idea but I have some questions.
> 
>     -In which area my idea is located? networking?
>     -Should the idea implemented as Linux driver or as userspace program?

Step back and answer these questions:
  - do you have documentation for how this protocol works?
  - do you have access to hardware where you could test these kernel
    changes?

If you don't have that, then this might not be the best project to work
on :(

thanks,

greg k-h

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
       [not found]   ` <4d84791d-c866-da7c-7036-27b217a8062b@studenti.unimi.it>
@ 2019-04-01 18:37     ` Andrea Laisa
  2019-04-01 18:53       ` Bharath Vedartham
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Laisa @ 2019-04-01 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

I'm not sure what project i'm looking to apply, maybe a netdev driver? 
Or two network protocol driver with a userspace daemon/utilities to 
control the antenna? Or just a userspace daemon/utilities.
I don't have a clear idea where I should write the code that controls 
the antenna.

Il 01/04/19 20:28, Andrea Laisa ha scritto:
> Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
>> Who is "you" here?  What project specifically are you looking to apply
>> to that asked you to post on the kernelnewbies list?
>
> As "you" I mean all linux kernel hacker.
>
>
> Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
>>    - do you have documentation for how this protocol works?
>>    - do you have access to hardware where you could test these kernel
>>      changes?
>
> Yes, I have access to my home antenna (and access point), but I don't 
> have any tyoe of official documentation because it doesn't exist or I 
> doesnt't found it,
>
> I have sniffed my network traffic between the access point and the 
> antenna and I discovered(with wireshark) that they use a custom 
> protocol over LCC (dsap 0x40 and 0x10) to setup the connection to my 
> ISP via LTE. After the setup the AP routes the LAN network traffic to 
> the antenna as expected over a 802.1q-tagged IP packet(with VLAN 
> ID=1121).
>
> Although I don't have access to the protocol specifications, I'm going 
> to reverse engineering the protocol!
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
  2019-04-01 18:37     ` Andrea Laisa
@ 2019-04-01 18:53       ` Bharath Vedartham
  2019-04-01 19:43         ` Andrea Laisa
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Bharath Vedartham @ 2019-04-01 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrea Laisa; +Cc: kernelnewbies

On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:37:51PM +0200, Andrea Laisa wrote:
> I'm not sure what project i'm looking to apply, maybe a netdev driver? Or
> two network protocol driver with a userspace daemon/utilities to control the
> antenna? Or just a userspace daemon/utilities.
> I don't have a clear idea where I should write the code that controls the
> antenna.
>
I think you want to apply for Gsoc for the linux foundation. Go check
out this website for more details. 
https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/gsoc/google-summer-code-2019
The deadline for submitting your application is April 9th!
> Il 01/04/19 20:28, Andrea Laisa ha scritto:
> >Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
> >>Who is "you" here?  What project specifically are you looking to apply
> >>to that asked you to post on the kernelnewbies list?
> >
> >As "you" I mean all linux kernel hacker.
"You" should mean an organisation like the Linux foundation, strace etc.
Please be more specific on that.
> >
> >
> >Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
> >>   - do you have documentation for how this protocol works?
> >>   - do you have access to hardware where you could test these kernel
> >>     changes?
> >
> >Yes, I have access to my home antenna (and access point), but I don't have
> >any tyoe of official documentation because it doesn't exist or I doesnt't
> >found it,
> >
> >I have sniffed my network traffic between the access point and the antenna
> >and I discovered(with wireshark) that they use a custom protocol over LCC
> >(dsap 0x40 and 0x10) to setup the connection to my ISP via LTE. After the
> >setup the AP routes the LAN network traffic to the antenna as expected
> >over a 802.1q-tagged IP packet(with VLAN ID=1121).
> >
> >Although I don't have access to the protocol specifications, I'm going to
> >reverse engineering the protocol!
> >
You have stated that the protocol is proprietary? Could you give more
info on your wireshark output. If the protocol is proprietary, then it
would be really difficult for you to write a driver for it. Reversing
engineering a protocol would take you months to figure it out. I don't
Gsoc would be possible for you right now on this idea. If your interested check out
the other ideas in the link above. 
Also the link above has explained on how to propose your own idea for a
Gsoc project. Please do check it out!
Also try reaching out to the company to see if they already support this
protocol on linux.(Probably not because it is proprietary).

Thanks! 
Bharath
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org
> https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
  2019-04-01 18:53       ` Bharath Vedartham
@ 2019-04-01 19:43         ` Andrea Laisa
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Andrea Laisa @ 2019-04-01 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On 4/1/19 8:53 PM, Bharath Vedartham wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:37:51PM +0200, Andrea Laisa wrote:
>> I'm not sure what project i'm looking to apply, maybe a netdev driver? Or
>> two network protocol driver with a userspace daemon/utilities to control the
>> antenna? Or just a userspace daemon/utilities.
>> I don't have a clear idea where I should write the code that controls the
>> antenna.
>>
> I think you want to apply for Gsoc for the linux foundation. Go check
> out this website for more details.
> https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/gsoc/google-summer-code-2019
> The deadline for submitting your application is April 9th!
I have already read the page and tried to contact the org admins but 
they seem to be unreacheble
>> Il 01/04/19 20:28, Andrea Laisa ha scritto:
>>> Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
>>>> Who is "you" here?  What project specifically are you looking to apply
>>>> to that asked you to post on the kernelnewbies list?
>>> As "you" I mean all linux kernel hacker.
> "You" should mean an organisation like the Linux foundation, strace etc.
> Please be more specific on that.
I mean the linux foundation.
>>>
>>> Il 01/04/19 19:16, Greg KH ha scritto:
>>>>     - do you have documentation for how this protocol works?
>>>>     - do you have access to hardware where you could test these kernel
>>>>       changes?
>>> Yes, I have access to my home antenna (and access point), but I don't have
>>> any tyoe of official documentation because it doesn't exist or I doesnt't
>>> found it,
>>>
>>> I have sniffed my network traffic between the access point and the antenna
>>> and I discovered(with wireshark) that they use a custom protocol over LCC
>>> (dsap 0x40 and 0x10) to setup the connection to my ISP via LTE. After the
>>> setup the AP routes the LAN network traffic to the antenna as expected
>>> over a 802.1q-tagged IP packet(with VLAN ID=1121).
>>>
>>> Although I don't have access to the protocol specifications, I'm going to
>>> reverse engineering the protocol!
>>>
> You have stated that the protocol is proprietary? Could you give more
> info on your wireshark output. If the protocol is proprietary, then it
> would be really difficult for you to write a driver for it. Reversing
> engineering a protocol would take you months to figure it out. I don't
> Gsoc would be possible for you right now on this idea. If your interested check out
> the other ideas in the link above.
> Also the link above has explained on how to propose your own idea for a
> Gsoc project. Please do check it out!

I'm not sure if it's proprietary but I wasn't able to find the specs of 
the protocol.

Wireshark has failed to recognize the inner data in the LLC pdu. the 
LLCs has 0x40 or 0x10 has SSAP.  The OUI of the mac addresses are 
"sequans communications". I suspect the LLC PDUs are used to setup the 
antenna and get the data about the radio status. The packet sent from/to 
the LAN from/to the internet are encapsuled in 802.1q(using VLAN 
id=1121). I'm confident the protocol is not too hard to figure it out

> Also try reaching out to the company to see if they already support this
> protocol on linux.(Probably not because it is proprietary).
I will do it!
> Thanks!
> Bharath
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>> Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org
>> https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

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Kernelnewbies mailing list
Kernelnewbies@kernelnewbies.org
https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
  2019-04-01 16:19 Questions about my idea (for gsoc) Andrea Laisa
  2019-04-01 17:16 ` Greg KH
@ 2019-04-01 19:49 ` Valdis Klētnieks
  2019-04-01 20:51   ` Cindy-Sue Causey
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Valdis Klētnieks @ 2019-04-01 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andrea Laisa; +Cc: kernelnewbies

On Mon, 01 Apr 2019 18:19:12 +0200, Andrea Laisa said:

> My idea is to write a Linux driver for a proprietary network protocol 
> used by the outdoor Gemtek antennas(which are essentially a LTE modem) 

This may be a legal mine field.  To create a *usable* Linux driver, you'll need
to have one that's free of licensing restrictions.  If Gemtek claims one or
more patents on the protocol, you may be unable to implement the protocol
without dealing with the licensing issues.

And I'm reasonably sure that Gemtek won't be too interested in helping you
write the driver, because its existence would cut into their sales of access points.

Note that this is *different* than the question of reverse engineering hardware
or software for interoperability. Patents cover any use whatsoever of the patented
intellectual property, and if you reverse engineer and then implement, you
can't claim accidental infringement (which happens a lot, especially if the
patent ofice is lax on enforcing the "non-obvious" requirement) and you're
squarely in willful infringement territory, which in the US can get you hit
with triple damages...

(Note - I am not a laywer, just somebody who reads enough about intellectual
property law to know that anytime you see "proprietary", you are *guaranteed*
to hit some sort of intellectual property law issue. 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread

* Re: Questions about my idea (for gsoc)
  2019-04-01 19:49 ` Valdis Klētnieks
@ 2019-04-01 20:51   ` Cindy-Sue Causey
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Cindy-Sue Causey @ 2019-04-01 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kernel Newbies

On 4/1/19, Valdis Klētnieks <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Apr 2019 18:19:12 +0200, Andrea Laisa said:
>
>> My idea is to write a Linux driver for a proprietary network protocol
>> used by the outdoor Gemtek antennas(which are essentially a LTE modem)
>
> This may be a legal mine field.  To create a *usable* Linux driver, you'll
> need
> to have one that's free of licensing restrictions.  If Gemtek claims one or
> more patents on the protocol, you may be unable to implement the protocol
> without dealing with the licensing issues.
>
> And I'm reasonably sure that Gemtek won't be too interested in helping you
> write the driver, because its existence would cut into their sales of access
> points.


I was thinking possibly pretty much the same thing. The
hcfmodem/hsfmodem dialup modem family is what comes to mind. I'm
online right this second k/t Puppy Linux. If it wasn't for their old
Wary5.5, I'd probably still be offline fighting trying to get
something working... and that's after YEARS of experience attempting
exactly that. :)

Yes, I know... Maybe Gemtek would say, "SURE, we'll help you (take
money out of our pockets)." If they don't, it could possibly just
evolve into another hsfmodem kind of deal. That has always sounded
like it generated a lot of static from both sides, the users and the
proprietary owners, with the Developers out there in the middle.

Things have FINALLY lightened up these many years later. I assume
that's likely only because there are comparatively few of us on dialup
now, e.g. my local hometown provider occasionally hints that mine
might be *almost* the only dialup account they serve. They once
confessed that "my" server gets completely forgotten while it sits off
in a corner somewhere. :)

In a way, this Gemtek thing sounds like there might be a WHOLE lot
more money at stake than there was with old $10, $20, even $50 dialup
modems. That would certainly amplify any potentially anticipated
opposition in a case like this.

Cindy :)
-- 
* runs with birdseed *

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Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-04-01 16:19 Questions about my idea (for gsoc) Andrea Laisa
2019-04-01 17:16 ` Greg KH
     [not found]   ` <4d84791d-c866-da7c-7036-27b217a8062b@studenti.unimi.it>
2019-04-01 18:37     ` Andrea Laisa
2019-04-01 18:53       ` Bharath Vedartham
2019-04-01 19:43         ` Andrea Laisa
2019-04-01 19:49 ` Valdis Klētnieks
2019-04-01 20:51   ` Cindy-Sue Causey

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