From: Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
Cc: Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>,
Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@google.com>,
Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>,
Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com>,
James Bottomley <james.bottomley@hansenpartnership.com>,
Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@inria.fr>,
Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>,
Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@linaro.org>,
Roland Dreier <roland@kernel.org>,
ksummit@lists.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 21:35:28 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMuHMdV-smViyOiEvEXcbR2Rjvh+TA0wkF+0y-vwbdcOMHWiUA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3D69F05C-A039-4730-957B-02BE4E06C547@amacapital.net>
Hi Andy,
On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 9:31 PM Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net> wrote:
> > On Jul 8, 2021, at 11:51 AM, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 02:36:40PM +0100, Wedson Almeida Filho wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jul 08, 2021 at 08:11:10AM +0200, Greg KH wrote:
> >>> Thanks for the detailed explainations, it seems rust can "get away" with
> >>> some things with regards to reference counts that the kernel can not.
> >>> Userspace has it easy, but note that now that rust is not in userspace,
> >>> dealing with multiple cpus/threads is going to be interesting for the
> >>> language.
> >>>
> >>> So, along those lines, how are you going to tie rust's reference count
> >>> logic in with the kernel's reference count logic? How are you going to
> >>> handle dentries, inodes, kobjects, devices and the like? That's the
> >>> real question that I don't seem to see anyone even starting to answer
> >>> just yet.
> >>
> >> None of what I described before is specific to userspace, but I understand your
> >> need to see something more concrete.
> >>
> >> I'll describe what we've done for `task_struct` and how lifetimes, aliasing
> >> rules, sync & send traits help us achieve zero cost (when compared to C) but
> >> also gives us safety. The intention here is to show that similar things can (and
> >> will) be done to other kernel reference-counted objects when we get to them.
> >
> > <snip loads of good stuff here, thanks for helping describe all of this>
> >
> >
> >>> And that's the reason some of us are asking to see a "real" driver, as
> >>> those have to deal with these kernel-controlled-reference-counted
> >>> objects properly (as well as hardware control). Seeing how that is
> >>> going to work in this language is going to be the real sign of if this
> >>> is even going to be possible or not.
> >>
> >> Here's what I'd like to avoid: spending time on something that you all still
> >> think is not typical enough. Would you be able to point us to a driver that
> >> would showcase the interactions you'd like to see so that (once we have it in
> >> Rust) we can have a discussion about the merits of the language?
> >>
> >> Hopefully something with interesting interactions with the kernel, but not
> >> with overly complex hardware, that is, something that doesn't require us to read
> >> a 400-page specification to implement.
> >
> > Examples were provided in the first series that was submitted a few
> > months ago. What was wrong with them? And really, there is no need to
> > dig through a huge spec, try porting an existing C driver will be much
> > easier.
> >
> > But if you didn't like the previous examples (nvme block driver, i2c
> > driver, gpio driver), how about looking at the drivers used by your
> > current desktop and picking something that you use today that actually
> > talks to hardware?
>
> I would suggest a virtio device. The core virtio guest code is horribly unsafe, and various stakeholders keep trying to make it slightly less unsafe. A Rust implementation of the entire virtio ring (or at least the modern bits) and of some concrete device (virtio-blk?) would be quite nice.
Another deviation from real hardware drivers? ;-)
How many kernel maintainers have experience with writing a virtio driver?
What is wrong with something driving real hardware?
Gr{oetje,eeting}s,
Geert
--
Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But
when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
-- Linus Torvalds
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-07-08 19:35 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 201+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-06-25 22:09 [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-05 23:51 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 4:30 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 9:55 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 10:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-06 17:59 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 18:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:12 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 21:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:10 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 15:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:50 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-07 16:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 16:55 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:22 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 14:30 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:03 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:33 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 16:09 ` Mike Rapoport
2021-07-06 18:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 19:45 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-06 19:59 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:53 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 21:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:57 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-07 13:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-07 13:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:26 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 19:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:13 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-06 19:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:20 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-06 14:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:01 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 10:02 ` Marco Elver
2021-07-09 16:02 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:09 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 14:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:33 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 14:56 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 15:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:38 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 20:00 ` Roland Dreier
2021-07-06 20:36 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 22:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 7:27 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 7:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 7:52 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 13:49 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:08 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 15:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 17:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 19:19 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 20:38 ` Jan Kara
2021-07-07 23:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 6:11 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 13:36 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 18:51 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 19:31 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven [this message]
2021-07-08 21:56 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:49 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-08 20:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 22:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 7:24 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 12:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 13:15 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 14:02 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 14:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 21:32 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 21:33 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-20 1:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 6:43 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 18:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-19 14:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:32 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 21:31 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 17:37 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 16:02 ` Vegard Nossum
2021-07-19 17:45 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:06 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 19:37 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 21:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 23:54 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 1:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-21 1:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 13:54 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 14:13 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-21 14:19 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-22 11:33 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 0:45 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 4:39 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:04 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 4:23 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:13 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 22:57 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 7:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 9:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 12:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 13:53 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:42 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 22:16 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-20 1:20 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 13:21 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:38 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 14:04 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:55 ` Greg KH
2021-07-20 1:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 16:00 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-20 22:42 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 15:15 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-19 15:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 7:03 ` Viresh Kumar
2021-07-09 17:06 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-09 17:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-10 9:53 ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-07-10 20:09 ` Kees Cook
2021-07-08 13:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:58 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 15:02 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-08 16:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 18:01 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 18:00 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 18:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 23:09 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 7:20 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:41 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 13:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:54 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 14:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-09 7:04 ` Jerome Glisse
2021-07-08 14:04 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:18 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:33 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:35 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 11:55 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 16:07 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 20:58 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 21:47 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 10:50 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-07 10:56 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 11:27 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 11:34 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 12:38 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:17 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:49 ` cdev/devm_* issues (was Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux) Greg KH
2021-07-08 8:23 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 23:06 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 0:02 ` Dan Williams
2021-07-09 16:53 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-13 8:59 ` Linus Walleij
[not found] ` <CAHp75VfW7PxAyU=eYPNWFU_oUY=aStz-4W5gX87KSo402YhMXQ@mail.gmail.com>
2021-07-21 13:46 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 15:49 ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-07-10 7:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-12 13:42 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-07-15 9:54 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-21 9:08 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-22 9:56 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-22 10:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-08 9:08 ` [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2021-07-10 16:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-10 17:18 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 15:17 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-06 21:45 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 23:08 ` Stephen Hemminger
2021-07-07 2:41 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 18:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 20:32 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 20:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 21:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 7:22 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-07 21:02 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 22:43 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 23:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 23:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 0:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 0:56 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:26 ` Alexey Dobriyan
2021-07-06 19:05 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 19:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-07 16:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2023-08-07 10:03 Miguel Ojeda
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