From: Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>
To: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com>
Cc: Leon Romanovsky <leon@kernel.org>,
Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@linaro.org>,
ksummit@lists.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 17:33:14 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <YORpqqzgwwoS2iAy@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CANiq72nCDKQAJaPOjR167FWnrCcqnvovuHEx58Zmur6su897Qw@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 04:24:07PM +0200, Miguel Ojeda wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 6:30 AM Leon Romanovsky <leon@kernel.org> wrote:
> >
> > 1. The addition of another language to the mix will hurt a lot our
> > ability to refactor code for cross-subsystem changes.
> >
> > Just as an example, there are many changes in DMA/SG areas that are
> > applicable for many drivers. Even simple grep->replace pattern will
> > be harder and longer if it is needed for the drivers that are written
> > in different languages.
>
> In the design we chose, Rust drivers do not call C code directly --
> they go through the abstractions a given subsystem may provide. Thus
> only the abstractions would need to be updated, like any other C
> consumer of the APIs.
I think the point is that if a C API that has a Rust abstraction built
on top changes, then the Rust API exposed by abstraction may have to
change, so all Rust code that use it would need to be updated too. I
dread to think how we could do large refactoring if we can't use
Coccinelle for Rust code.
> > 2. Testing matrix will be duplicated, both in compilation tests and in
> > verification coverage. Even now, there are some kernel subsystems that
> > so much in-love with CONFIG_* options that their combination is slightly
> > tested or not tested at all. So imagine, we will need to recompile
> > everything with Rust too and execute same coverage tests again.
>
> I am not sure I understand this point.
>
> On its own, `CONFIG_RUST` only changes 1 single place currently (the
> addition of a `vsprintf` format specifier).
>
> Moreover, the goal is that Rust is enabled by default for
> architectures that support it. So there would be no need for
> duplication at all.
>
> > And yes, proper testing costs a lot of money, which IMHO better to
> > invest in improving coverage/fixing bugs/tooling instead of adding
> > new language to the pack.
>
> The original RFC includes an overview of advantages and disadvantages of Rust:
>
> https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210414184604.23473-1-ojeda@kernel.org/
>
> Rust brings things to the table that less-than-100%-coverage and
> tooling cannot. For instance, UBSAN catches UB, but the safe subset of
> Rust forbids UB statically (assuming unsafe code is sound).
>
> Trying to clarify this sort of thing is why I included the "quick
> introduction of the Rust language" point in the abstract of the tech
> topic -- I think it is worth having a common ground to discuss things
> and getting everybody on the same page.
--
Regards,
Laurent Pinchart
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-07-06 14:42 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 201+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-06-25 22:09 [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-05 23:51 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 4:30 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 9:55 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 10:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-06 17:59 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 18:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:12 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 21:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:10 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 15:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:50 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-07 16:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 16:55 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:22 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 14:30 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:03 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:33 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 16:09 ` Mike Rapoport
2021-07-06 18:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 19:45 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-06 19:59 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:53 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 21:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:57 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-07 13:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-07 13:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:26 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 19:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:13 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-06 19:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:20 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-06 14:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:01 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 10:02 ` Marco Elver
2021-07-09 16:02 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:09 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 14:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:33 ` Laurent Pinchart [this message]
2021-07-06 14:56 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 15:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:38 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 20:00 ` Roland Dreier
2021-07-06 20:36 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 22:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 7:27 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 7:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 7:52 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 13:49 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:08 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 15:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 17:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 19:19 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 20:38 ` Jan Kara
2021-07-07 23:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 6:11 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 13:36 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 18:51 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 19:31 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 21:56 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:49 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-08 20:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 22:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 7:24 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 12:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 13:15 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 14:02 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 14:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 21:32 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 21:33 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-20 1:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 6:43 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 18:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-19 14:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:32 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 21:31 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 17:37 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 16:02 ` Vegard Nossum
2021-07-19 17:45 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:06 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 19:37 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 21:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 23:54 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 1:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-21 1:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 13:54 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 14:13 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-21 14:19 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-22 11:33 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 0:45 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 4:39 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:04 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 4:23 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:13 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 22:57 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 7:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 9:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 12:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 13:53 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:42 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 22:16 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-20 1:20 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 13:21 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:38 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 14:04 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:55 ` Greg KH
2021-07-20 1:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 16:00 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-20 22:42 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 15:15 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-19 15:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 7:03 ` Viresh Kumar
2021-07-09 17:06 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-09 17:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-10 9:53 ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-07-10 20:09 ` Kees Cook
2021-07-08 13:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:58 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 15:02 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-08 16:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 18:01 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 18:00 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 18:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 23:09 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 7:20 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:41 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 13:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:54 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 14:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-09 7:04 ` Jerome Glisse
2021-07-08 14:04 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:18 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:33 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:35 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 11:55 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 16:07 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 20:58 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 21:47 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 10:50 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-07 10:56 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 11:27 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 11:34 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 12:38 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:17 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:49 ` cdev/devm_* issues (was Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux) Greg KH
2021-07-08 8:23 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 23:06 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 0:02 ` Dan Williams
2021-07-09 16:53 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-13 8:59 ` Linus Walleij
[not found] ` <CAHp75VfW7PxAyU=eYPNWFU_oUY=aStz-4W5gX87KSo402YhMXQ@mail.gmail.com>
2021-07-21 13:46 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 15:49 ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-07-10 7:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-12 13:42 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-07-15 9:54 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-21 9:08 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-22 9:56 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-22 10:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-08 9:08 ` [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2021-07-10 16:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-10 17:18 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 15:17 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-06 21:45 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 23:08 ` Stephen Hemminger
2021-07-07 2:41 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 18:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 20:32 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 20:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 21:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 7:22 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-07 21:02 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 22:43 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 23:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 23:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 0:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 0:56 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:26 ` Alexey Dobriyan
2021-07-06 19:05 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 19:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-07 16:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2023-08-07 10:03 Miguel Ojeda
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