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From: luto@kernel.org (Andy Lutomirski)
To: linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org
Subject: [GIT PULL] Kernel lockdown for secure boot
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 11:47:52 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrU_4PywXj78pzfuCYCfXxQNvi_K-KfuyZKHu-upfesdPw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20180404184255.exdrtpqnxlqme7tl@redhat.com>

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 11:42 AM, Peter Jones <pjones@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 03, 2018 at 02:51:23PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Matthew Garrett <mjg59@google.com> wrote:
>> Can someone please explain why the UEFI crowd cares so much about "as
>> a bootloader"?  Once I'm able to install an OS (Linux kernel +
>> bootloader, Windows embedded doodad, OpenBSD, whatever) on your
>> machine, I can use your peripherals, read your data, write your data,
>> see your keystrokes, use your network connection, re-flash your BIOS
>> (at least as well as any OS can), run VMs, and generally own your
>> system.  Somehow you all seem fine with all of this, except that the
>> fact that I can chainload something else gives UEFI people the
>> willies.
>>
>> Can someone explain why?
>
> There's no inherent difference, in terms of the trust chain, between
> compromising it to use the machine as a toaster or to run a botnet - the
> trust chain is compromised either way.  But you're much more likely to
> notice if your desktop starts producing bread products than if it hides
> some malware and keeps on booting, and the second one is much more
> attractive to attackers anyway.
>
> The reason we talk about it as a bootloader is because of the model
> employed by malware.  I'm sure you know that one kind of malware that
> exists in the wild, a so-called "boot kit", operates by modifying a
> kernel during load (or on disk before loading) so that it has some
> malicious payload, like exfiltrating user data or allowing a way to
> install software that the kernel hides or *whatever*, and incorporating
> some way to achieve relative persistence on the system - for example
> hiding the real boot settings and loading a kernel with a different than
> normal initramfs that loads an exploit before continuing with a normal
> looking boot.

This is a fair point, but I wonder how much it matters in practice.
If I'm writing a bootkit, I can think of at least four ways to do it.

1. The easy way.  Write a malicious bootloader that modifies the
kernel image to insert malicious code.  Stock secure boot makes this
awkward because you need a signed bootloader.  It's worth noting that
a non-locked-down signed Linux kernel is actually a rather awkward way
to do this because it will add several seconds to the boot and may
show a splash screen unless you're rather careful.

2. The CPL3 way.  Write a malicious initramfs that inserts the
malicious code in PID 1 instead.  This might be easier to get working
across a variety of Linux kernels, but it's more awkward to hide well
from userspace.  Conventional secure boot (with the stock MS keys)
doesn't help at all.

3. The nasty way.  Find a known exploitable kernel or bootloader, and
use it to do your evil deeds.  This is very, very hard to protect
against with normal secure boot.

4. The VM-kit way.  Use a signed, locked down, perfectly secure kernel
and run your pwned system as a VM guest.  Secure boot doesn't help one
whit.

*All* of these variants are avoided by a real, working verified boot
approach that chains all the way down to the running system image, and
*that* solution doesn't need cpl0 and cpl3 to be separated.

So I find myself wondering whether the bootkit argument is actually
very compelling.
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  parent reply	other threads:[~2018-04-05 18:47 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 121+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-03-30 23:29 [GIT PULL] Kernel lockdown for secure boot David Howells
2018-03-31  0:46 ` James Morris
2018-04-03  0:37   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03  0:59     ` Kees Cook
2018-04-03  1:47       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03  7:06   ` David Howells
2018-04-03 15:11     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 15:41       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2018-04-03 16:26         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 16:29       ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 16:45         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 18:45           ` Kees Cook
2018-04-03 19:01             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 19:07               ` Kees Cook
2018-04-03 19:29           ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 21:51             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-04 18:42               ` Peter Jones
2018-04-04 20:01                 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-04-04 20:18                   ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-05 18:47                 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2018-04-06  4:42                 ` Peter Dolding
2018-04-03 17:16         ` David Howells
2018-04-03 19:01           ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 19:49           ` David Howells
2018-04-03 21:58             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 22:32             ` David Howells
2018-04-03 22:39               ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 22:46                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 22:51                   ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 22:53                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 23:09                       ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 23:08                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:10                       ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:17                       ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 23:26                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:39                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:47                             ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:02                               ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:04                                 ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:08                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:12                                     ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-05 14:58                                       ` Alan Cox
2018-04-04  0:22                                   ` David Howells
2018-04-05 17:59                                   ` Alan Cox
2018-04-05 18:03                                     ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 23:45                           ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 23:55                             ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:59                               ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:06                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:10                                   ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:15                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:16                                       ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:18                                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-04  0:19                                           ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  9:04                                             ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-04-04  0:25                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:33                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:46                                             ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  0:56                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  1:13                                                 ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  1:43                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  4:30                                                     ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04 12:57                                                       ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-04-04 13:02                                                         ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-04-04 13:34                                                           ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-04-04 13:57                                                             ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2018-04-04 13:29                                                         ` Mike Galbraith
2018-04-04 16:20                                                         ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04 13:33                                                       ` David Howells
2018-04-04 13:52                                                         ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2018-04-04 16:22                                                           ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04 16:39                                                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-04 16:42                                                               ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04 16:46                                                               ` Justin Forbes
2018-04-05  0:05                                                             ` Peter Dolding
2018-04-05  0:20                                                               ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04 13:57                                                         ` David Howells
2018-04-04 16:09                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04 16:17                                                         ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-04  6:56                                                   ` Peter Dolding
2018-04-04 16:26                                                     ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-05  1:28                                                       ` Peter Dolding
2018-04-04  1:36                                                 ` Justin Forbes
     [not found]                                                 ` <CAFbkSA0ursG3RGWU19LQiD6u30h5V=Aqj3oVyHQCiX6MLopYUg@mail.gmail.com>
2018-04-04  1:58                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-04  0:17                                   ` Jann Horn
2018-04-04  0:23                                     ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-04  8:05                                     ` David Howells
2018-04-04 14:35                                       ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-04 14:44                                       ` David Howells
2018-04-04 15:43                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2018-04-03 23:56                         ` David Howells
2018-04-03 23:58                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:39                 ` David Howells
2018-04-03 23:48                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 23:12               ` David Howells
2018-04-03 23:27                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 23:42                 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-04-03 20:53         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 20:54           ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 21:01             ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 21:08               ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 21:21                 ` Al Viro
2018-04-03 21:37                   ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-03 21:26                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-04-03 21:32                   ` Matthew Garrett
2018-03-31 10:20 ` David Howells
2018-04-03 13:25   ` Ard Biesheuvel
2018-04-03 21:48     ` James Morris
2018-04-05 17:53     ` Alan Cox
2018-11-21 12:05 ` [PATCH next-lockdown 0/1] debugfs EPERM fix for 'Kernel lockdown for secure boot' patch series Vasily Gorbik
2018-11-21 12:05   ` [PATCH next-lockdown 1/1] debugfs: avoid EPERM when no open file operation defined Vasily Gorbik
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-04-04  2:34 [GIT PULL] Kernel lockdown for secure boot Alexei Starovoitov
2018-04-04  4:31 ` Matthew Garrett
2018-04-08  7:44   ` joeyli
2018-04-08  8:07 ` joeyli
2018-04-09  3:40   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2018-04-09  8:14     ` Daniel Borkmann
2018-04-09 13:55     ` joeyli
2017-10-26 16:37 David Howells
2017-10-26 18:22 ` Mimi Zohar
2017-10-26 19:20 ` James Morris

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