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From: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
To: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
Cc: Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org,
	joseph@codesourcery.com, john.stultz@linaro.org,
	hch@infradead.org, tglx@linutronix.de, geert@linux-m68k.org,
	lftan@altera.com, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, xfs@oss.sgi.com
Subject: Re: [RFC 11/32] xfs: convert to struct inode_time
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 10:39:54 +1000
Message-ID: <20140601003954.GM14410@dastard> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <538995D4.9050702@zytor.com>

On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 01:41:56AM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> On 05/30/2014 10:54 PM, Dave Chinner wrote:
> > 
> > If we are changing the in-kernel timestamp to have a greater dynamic
> > range that anything we current support on disk, then we need support
> > for all filesystems for similar translation and constraint. The
> > filesystems need to be able to tell the kernel what they timestamp
> > range they support, and then the kernel needs to follow those
> > guidelines. And if the filesystem is mounted on a kernel that
> > doesn't support the current filesystem's timestamp format, then at
> > minimum that filesystem cannot do anything that writes a
> > timestamp....
> > 
> > Put simply: the filesystem defines the timestamp range that can be
> > used safely, not the userspace API. If the filesystem can't support
> > the date it is handed then that is an out-of-range error. Since
> > when have we accepted that it's OK to handle out-of-range data with
> > silent overflows or corruption of the data that we are attempting to
> > store? We're defining a new API to support a wider date range -
> > there is nothing that prevents us from saying ERANGE can be returned
> > to a timestamp that the file cannot store correctly....
> > 
> 
> I'm still puzzled.
> 
> Are you saying that you want a program that does:
> 
> 	/* Deliberately simplified */
> 	gettimeofdayns(&now ...);
> 	utimensat(... now);
> 
> ... to suddenly start failing on Jan 19, 2038 (for a filesystem with
> 32-bit timestamps),

Yes. Hard fail so overflows are in your face and we know exactly
what is going to cause silent timestamp screwups when the epoch

> or would you propose some ways for the filesystems
> in question to extend the range of the timestamps?

Filesystems are going to have to change their on-disk formats, so
we'd do that just like we do every other on-disk format change. With
feature bits and translation layers, new ioctl structures, etc.
Depending on the amount of work necessary, some filesystems could do
this in 3.16, others it might be 3.20 before everything is sorted
out across the kernel and userspace code...

Either way, the hard fail problem goes away as each filesystem is
converted. Further, if we have regression tests then new filesystems
are guaranteed to be designed to handle 2038 epoch rollover, and so
in a year of two this "hard fail" is effectively a non-problem. If
someone breaks something in future, then we'll know about it pretty
quickly.

> What you seem to propose also seems to imply that on Jan 19, 2038
> anything that writes a timestamp with the current date (which logically
> ends up being almost every write operation) would be dead and frozen on
> such a filesystem -- pretty much meaning the filesystem would become
> readonly if not in reality than in practice.

Yup. If we can't do what the user wants without the user thinking
corruption has occurred, then the only thing we are left with is
"shut down the filesystem" error handling. Kind of like using BUG()
rather than returning an error. That's why we need to be able to
hard fail and return an error.

However, we've got 20+ years to fix our current filesystems and all
their support code to ensure this doesn't happen. In the mean time,
having stuff hard fail is a great way to ensure that filesystems get
fixed sooner rather than later...

> I strongly suspect that that would be a more catastrophic failure than
> incorrect timestamps, as you suddenly have all kinds of machines
> embedded in $DEITY knows what places just stop and refuse to run.

Yup, that's a great way of flushing out problems 20 years before
they really matter.

Cheers,

Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@fromorbit.com

  parent reply index

Thread overview: 124+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-05-30 20:01 [RFC 00/32] making inode time stamps y2038 ready Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 01/32] fs: introduce new 'struct inode_time' Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  7:56   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  8:39     ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 13:19       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31 13:46         ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 14:54       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 16:15         ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  9:03   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 14:53     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:55       ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 02/32] uapi: add struct __kernel_timespec{32,64} Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:18   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 15:09     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 03/32] fs: introduce sys_utimens64at Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  9:22   ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 14:55     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 04/32] fs: introduce sys_newfstat64/sys_newfstatat64 Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 05/32] arch: hook up new stat and utimes syscalls Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 06/32] isofs: fix timestamps beyond 2027 Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  7:59   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  8:47     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 07/32] fs/nfs: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 08/32] fs/ceph: convert to 'struct inode_time' Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 09/32] fs/pstore: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 21:14   ` Kees Cook
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 10/32] fs/coda: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 11/32] xfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  0:37   ` Dave Chinner
2014-05-31  0:41     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31  1:14       ` Dave Chinner
2014-05-31  1:22         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31  5:54           ` Dave Chinner
2014-05-31  8:41             ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 15:46               ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-01 19:56                 ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01 20:26                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 11:02                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  1:36                   ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-02  2:22                     ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02  7:09                       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-06-02 10:56                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 11:57                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 12:38                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 13:15                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 12:52                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 13:07                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 15:01                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 14:52                         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 15:04                       ` Chuck Lever
2014-06-02 15:31                         ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 17:12                           ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 18:50                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 22:29                             ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 22:32                               ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 23:32                                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 23:33                                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-03 13:09                                   ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 18:52                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 18:58                         ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 19:04                           ` Chuck Lever
2014-06-02 19:10                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01  0:39               ` Dave Chinner [this message]
2014-06-02 14:00             ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-05-31 15:37         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01  0:24           ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02  0:28             ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02 11:35               ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 11:43               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03  0:32                 ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-03  7:33                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03  8:41                     ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-03  9:16                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 12/32] btrfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 13/32] ext3: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  9:10   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 14:32     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 14/32] ext4: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 15/32] cifs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 16/32] ntfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 17/32] ubifs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  7:54   ` Artem Bityutskiy
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 18/32] ocfs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 19/32] fs/fat: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 20/32] afs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 21/32] udf: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 22/32] fs: convert simple fs to inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 23:06   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 23/32] logfs: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 24/32] hfs, hfsplus: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:23   ` Vyacheslav Dubeyko
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 25/32] gfs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  9:52   ` Steven Whitehouse
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 26/32] reiserfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 27/32] jffs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 28/32] adfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 29/32] f2fs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 30/32] fuse: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 31/32] scsi: fnic: use current_kernel_time() for timestamp Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 32/32] fs: use new inode_time definition unconditionally Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:30 ` [RFC 00/32] making inode time stamps y2038 ready Vyacheslav Dubeyko
2014-06-03 12:21   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:51 ` Richard Cochran
2014-05-31 15:23   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 18:22     ` Richard Cochran
2014-05-31 19:34       ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-01  4:46         ` Richard Cochran
2014-06-01  4:44     ` Richard Cochran
2014-06-02 13:52 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-02 19:19   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 19:26     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 19:55       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 21:57         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-03 14:22           ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03 14:33             ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-03 14:37               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03 21:38             ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-04 15:03               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-04 17:30                 ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-04 19:24                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-05  0:10                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-10  9:54                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 21:02     ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-04 15:05       ` Arnd Bergmann

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