Linux 2.2.20pre10

Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

Things took a bit longer than intended with various security fixes needing to
be done. If this tree tests out ok it will be 2.2.20

2.2.20pre11
o	Security fixes
	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
o	Sparc updates					(Dave Miller)
o	Add escaped usb hot plug config item		(Ryan Maple)
o	Fix eepro10 driver problems			(Aris)
o	Make request_module return match 2.4		(David Woodhouse)
o	Update SiS900 driver				(Hui-Fen Hsu)
o	Update ver_linux to match 2.4			(Steven Cole)
o	Final isdn fixups for 2.2			(Kai Germaschewski)
o	scsi tape fixes from 2.4			(Kai Mäkisara)
o	Update credits entry				(Henrik Storner)
o	Fix scc driver hang case			(Jeroen)
o	Update credits entry				(Dave Jones)
o	Update FAT documentation			(Hirokazu Nomoto)
o	Small net tweaks				(Dave Miller)
o	Fix cs89xx abuse of skb->len			(Kapr Johnik)

2.2.20pre10
o	Update the gdth driver				(Achim Leubner)
o	Fix prelink elf loading in 2.2			(Jakub Jelinek)
o	2.2 lockd fixes when talking to HP/UX		(Trond Myklebust)
o	3ware driver update				(Adam Radford)
o	hysdn driver update				(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Backport via rhine fixes			(Dennis Bjorklund)
o	NFS client fixes		(Trond Myklebust, Ion Badulescu,
					 Jim Castleberry, Crag I Hagan.
					 Adrian Drzewiecki)
o	Blacklist TEAC PD-1 to single lun		(Wojtek Pilorz)
o	Fix null request_mode return 			(David Woodhouse)
o	Update credits entry				(Fernando Fuganti)
o	Fix sparc build with newer binutils		(Andreas Jaeger)
o	Starfire update					(Ion Badulescu)
o	Remove dead USB files				(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Fix isdn mppp crash case			(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Fix eicon driver				(Kai Germaschewski)
o	More pci idents					(Andreas Tobler)
o	Typo fix					(Eli Carter)
o	Remove ^M's from some data files		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	64bit cleanups for isdn				(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Update isdn certificates			(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Mac update for sysrq				(Ben Herrenschmidt)

2.2.20pre9
o	Document ip_always_defrag in proc.txt		(Brett Eldrige)
o	Update S/390 asm for newer gcc			(Ulrich Weigand
o	Update S/390 documentation			 Carsten Otte
o	Update s390 dump too				  and co)
o	Update s/390 dasd to match 2.4
o	Backport s/390 tape driver from 2.4
o	FDDI bits for s/390
o	Updates for newer pmac laptops			(Tom Rini)
o	AMD760MP support				(Johannes Erdfelt)
o	Fix PPC oops on media change			(Tom Rini)
o	Fix some weird but valid input combinations	(Tom Rini)
	on PPC
o	Add additional checks to irc dcc masquerade	(Juanjo Ciarlante,
							 Michal Zalewski)
o	Update 2.2 ISDN maintainer			(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Fix 3c505 with > 16Mb of RAM			(Paul)
o	Bring USB into sync with 2.4.7			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)

2.2.20pre8
o	Merge DRM fixes from 2.4.7 tree			(me)
o	Merge sbpcd fixes from 2.4.7 tree
o	Merge moxa buffer length check
o	Merge bttv clip length check
o	Merge aha2920 shared irq from 2.4.7 tree
o	Merge MTWEOF fix from 2.4.6 tree
o	Merge serverworks AGP from 2.4.6 tree
o	Merge sbc60xxx watchdog fixes from 2.4.6
o	Merge lapbether fixes from 2.4.6
o	Merge bpqether fixes from 2.4.6
o	Merge scc fixes from 2.4.6
o	Merge lmc memory leak fixes from 2.4.6
o	Merge sm_wss fixes from 2.4.6
o	Resync AGP support with 2.4.6
o	Merge epca fixes from 2.4.5
o	Merge riscom8 fixes from 2.4.5
o	Merge softdog fixes from 2.4.5
o	Merge specialix fixes from 2.4.5
o	Merge wdt/wdt_pci fixes from 2.4.5
o	ISDN cisco hdlc fixes				(Kai Germaschewski)
o	ISDN timer fixes				(Kai Germaschewski)
o	isdn minor control change backport		(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Backport ELCR MP 1.1 config/PCI routing stuff	(John William)
o	Backport isdn ppp fixes from 2.4		(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Backport isdn_tty fixes from 2.4		(Kai Germaschewski)
o	eicon cleanups					(Armin Schindler)
	| Armin can you double check the clashes were ok
o	Fix an ntfs oops				(Anton Altaparmakov)
o	Fix arp null neighbour buglet			(Dave Miller)
o	Update sparc version strings, pci fixups	(Dave Miller)
o	Define CONFIG_X86 in 2.2 as well as 2.4		(Herbert Xu)
o	Configure.help cleanups				(Steven Cole)
o	Add MODE_SELECT_10 to qlogic fc table		(Jeff Andre)
o	Remove dead oldproc variable			(Dave Miller)
o	Update starfire driver for 2.2			(Ion Badulescu)
o	8139too driver update				(Jens David)
o	Assorted race fixes for binfmt loaders		(Al Viro)
o	Update Alpha support for older boxes		(Jay Estabrook)
o	ISDN bsdcomp/ppp compression fixes		(Kai Germaschewski)

2.2.20pre7
o	Merge rose buffer management fixes		(Jean-Paul Roubelat)
o	Configure.help updates				(Steven Cole)
o	Add Steven Cole to credits			(Steven Cole)
o	Update kbuild list info				(Michael Chastain)
o	Fix slab.c doc typo				(Piotr Kasprzyk)
o	Lengthen parport probe timeout			(Jean-Luc Coulon)
o	Fix vm86 cleanup				(Stas Sergeev)
o	Fix 8139too build bug				(Jürgen Zimmermann)
o	Fix slow 8139too performance			(Oleg Makarenko)
o	Sparc64 exec fixes				(Solar Designer)

2.2.20pre6
o	Merge all the pending ISDN updates		(Kai Germaschewski)
	| These are sizable changes and want a good testing
o	Fix sg deadlock bug as per 2.4			(Douglas Gilbert)
o	Count socket/pipe in quota inode use		(Paul Menage)
o	Fix some missing configuration help texts	(Steven Cole)
o	Fix Rik van Riel's credits entry		(Rik van Riel)
o	Mark xtime as volatile in extern definition	(various people)
o	Fix open error return checks			(Andries Brouwer)

2.2.20pre5
o	Fix a patch generation error, replaces 2.2.20pre4 which is
	wrong on ad1848

2.2.20pre4
o	Fix small corruption bug in 82596		(Andries Brouwer)
o	Fix usb printer probing				(Pete Zaitcev)
o	Fix swapon/procfs race				(Paul Menage)
o	Handle ide dma bug in the CS5530		(Mark Lord)
o	Backport 2.4 ipv6 neighbour discovery changes	(Dave Miller)
o	FIx sock_wmalloc error handling			(Dave Miller)
o	Enter quickack mode for out of window TCP data	(Andi Kleen)
o	Fix Established v SYN-ACK TCP state error	(Alexey Kuznetsov)
o	Sparc updates, ptrace changes etc		(Dave Miller)
o	Fix wrong printk in vdolive masq		(Keitaro Yosimura)
o	Fix core dump handling bugs in 2.2		(Al Viro)
o	Update hdlc and synclink drivers		(Paul Fulghum)
o	Update netlink help texts			(Magnus Damm)
o	Fix rtl8139 keeping files open			(Andrew Morton)
o	Further sk98 driver updates. fix wrong license	(Mirko Lindner)
	text in files
o	Jonathan Woithe has moved			(Jonathan Woithe)
o	Update cpqarray driver				(Charles White)
o	Update cciss driver				(Charles White)
o	Don't delete directories on an fs that reports	(Ingo Oeser)
	then 0 size when doing distclean
o	Add support for the 2.4 boot extensions to 2.2	(H Peter Anvin)
o	Fix nfs cache locking corruption on SMP		(Craig Hagan)
o	Add missing check to cdrom readaudio ioctl	(Jani Jaakkola)
o	Fix refclock build with newer gcc		(Jari Ruusu)
o	koi8-r fixes					(Andy Rysin)
o	Spelling fixes for documentation		(Andries Brouwer)

2.2.20pre3
o	FPU/ptrace corruption fixes			(Victor Zandy)
o	Resync belkin usb serial with 2.4		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync digiport usb serial with 2.4		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Rsync empeg usb serial with 2.4			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync ftdi_sio against 2.4			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring keyscan usb back into line with 2.4	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync keyspan_pda usb with 2.4			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync omninet usb with 2.4.5			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync usb-serial driver with 2.4.5		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Resync visor usb driver with 2.4.5		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Rsync whiteheat driver with 2.4.5		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Add edgeport USB serial				(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Add mct_u232 USB serial				(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Update usb storage device list		(Stas Bekman, Kaz Sasayma)
o	Bring usb acm driver into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring bluetooth driver into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring dabusb driver into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring usb dc2xx driver into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring mdc800 usb driver into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring rio driver into line with 2.4.5		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Bring USB scanner drivers into line with 2.4.5	(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Update ov511 driver to match 2.4.5		(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Update PCIIOC ioctls (esp for sparc)		(Dave Miller)
o	General sparc bugfixes				(Dave Miller)
o	Fix possible oops in fbmem ioctls		(Dave Miller)
o	Fix reboot/halt bug on "Alcor" Alpha boxes	(Tom Vier)
o	Update osst driver 				(Willem Riede)
o	Fix syncppp negotiation bug			(Bob Dunlop)
o	SMBfs bug fixes from 2.4 series			(Urban Widmark)
o	3ware IDE raid driver updates			(Adam Radford)
o	Fix incorrect use of bitops on non long types	(Dave Miller)
o	Fix reboot/halt bug on 'Miata' Alpha boxes	(Tom Vier)
o	Update Tim Waugh's contact info			(Tim Waugh)
o	Add TIOCGSERIAL to sun serial on PCI sparc32	(Lars Kellogg-Stedman)
o	ov511 check user data more carefully		(Marc McClelland)
o	Fix netif_wake_queue compatibility macro	(Andi Kleen)

2.2.20pre2
o	Fix ip_decrease_ttl as per 2.4			(Dave Miller)
o	Fix tcp retransmit state bug			(Alexey Kuznetsov)
o	Fix a few obscure sparc tree bugs		(Dave Miller)
o	Fix fb /proc bug and OF fb name size bug	(Segher Boessenkool)
o	Fix complie with CONFIG_INTEL_RNG=y		(Andrzej Krzysztofowicz)
o	Fix rio driver when HZ!=100			(Andrzej Krzysztofowicz)
o	Stop 3c509 grabbing other EISA boards		(Andrzej Krzysztofowicz)
o	Remove surplus defines for root= names		(Andrzej Krzysztofowicz)
o	Revert pre1 APIC change

2.2.20pre1
o	Fix SMP deadlock in NFS				(Trond Myklebust)
o	Fix missing printk in bluesmoke handler		(me)
o	Fix sparc64 nfs					(Dave Miller)
o	Update io_apic code to avoid breaking dual	(Johannes Erdfelt)
	Athlon 760MP
o	Fix includes bugs in toshiba driver		(Justin Keene,
							 Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Fix wanpipe cross compile			(Phil Blundell)
o	AGPGART copy_from_user fix			(Dawson Engler)
o	Fix alpha resource setup error			(Allan Frank)
o	Eicon driver updates				(Armind Schindler)
o	PC300 driver update				(Daniela Squassoni)
o	Show lock owner on flocks			(Jim Mintha)
o	Update cciss driver to 1.0.3			(Charles White)
o	Backport cciss/cpqarray security fixes		(me)
o	Update i810 random number generator		(Jeff Garzik)
o	Update sk98 driver				(Mirko Lindner)
o	Update sis900 ethernet driver			(Hui-Fen Hsu)
o	Fix checklist glitch in make menuconfig		(Moritz Schulte)
o	Update synclink driver				(Paul Fulghum)
o	Update advansys scsi driver			(Bob Frey)
o	Ver_linux fixes for 2.2				(Steven Cole)
o	Bring 2.2 back into line with the master ISDN	(Kai Germaschewski)
o	Whiteheat usb driver update			(Greg Kroah-Hartmann)
o	Fix via_rhine byte counters			(Adam Lackorzynski)
o	Fix modem control on rio serial			(Rogier Wolff)
o	Add more Iomega Zip to the usb storage list	(Wim Coekaerts)
o	Add ZF Micro watchdog 				(Fernando Fuganti)

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bert hubert]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:49AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> Things took a bit longer than intended with various security fixes needing to
> be done. If this tree tests out ok it will be 2.2.20
> 
> 2.2.20pre11
> o	Security fixes
> 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA

Care to elaborate?

Regards,

bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com          Versatile DNS Software & Services
Trilab                                 The Technology People
Netherlabs BV / Rent-a-Nerd.nl           - Nerd Available -
'SYN! .. SYN|ACK! .. ACK!' - the mating call of the internet

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Allan Sandfeld]

On Monday 22 October 2001 12:21, Alan Cox wrote:
> Things took a bit longer than intended with various security fixes needing
> to be done. If this tree tests out ok it will be 2.2.20
>
> 2.2.20pre11
> o	Security fixes
> 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA

Why? I didnt think you like it, nor lived in the US?

If v'ger is in the US, I can understand not putting it in the changelog 
there. But why not on the mailing list?

regards
`Allan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Andreas Haumer]

Hi!

Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> Things took a bit longer than intended with various security fixes needing to
> be done. If this tree tests out ok it will be 2.2.20
> 
> 2.2.20pre11
> o       Security fixes
>         | Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> o       Sparc updates                                   (Dave Miller)
> o       Add escaped usb hot plug config item            (Ryan Maple)
> o       Fix eepro10 driver problems                     (Aris)
> o       Make request_module return match 2.4            (David Woodhouse)
> o       Update SiS900 driver                            (Hui-Fen Hsu)
> o       Update ver_linux to match 2.4                   (Steven Cole)
> o       Final isdn fixups for 2.2                       (Kai Germaschewski)
> o       scsi tape fixes from 2.4                        (Kai Mäkisara)
> o       Update credits entry                            (Henrik Storner)
> o       Fix scc driver hang case                        (Jeroen)
> o       Update credits entry                            (Dave Jones)
> o       Update FAT documentation                        (Hirokazu Nomoto)
> o       Small net tweaks                                (Dave Miller)
> o       Fix cs89xx abuse of skb->len                    (Kapr Johnik)

Any reason for my one-liner patch to linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c
is still not included?

andreas@ws1:~/cvsdir {625} % cvs diff -C5 -rR_2-2-19~11 -rR_2-2-19~12
linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c
Index: linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c
===================================================================
RCS file:
/raid5/cvs/repository/distribution/Base/linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c,v
retrieving revision 1.1.1.6
retrieving revision 1.12
diff -C5 -r1.1.1.6 -r1.12
*** linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c    2001/03/25 16:37:42     1.1.1.6
--- linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c    2001/08/17 11:53:48     1.12
***************
*** 1066,1075 ****
--- 1066,1076 ----
        rpciod_pid = current->pid;
        up(&rpciod_running);
 
        exit_files(current);
        exit_mm(current);
+       exit_fs(current);
 
        spin_lock_irq(&current->sigmask_lock);
        siginitsetinv(&current->blocked, sigmask(SIGKILL));
        recalc_sigpending(current);
        spin_unlock_irq(&current->sigmask_lock); 

Without this patch, rpciod keeps the initial ramdisk rootfs
busy on our diskless clients, so we cannot umount and free
it...

Regards,

- andreas

-- 
Andreas Haumer                     | mailto:andreas@xss.co.at
*x Software + Systeme              | http://www.xss.co.at/
Karmarschgasse 51/2/20             | Tel: +43-1-6060114-0
A-1100 Vienna, Austria             | Fax: +43-1-6060114-71

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> Any reason for my one-liner patch to linux/net/sunrpc/sched.c
> is still not included?

It didnt seem critical and I wanted to be sure that I got 2.2.20 out.
Its sensible for 2.2.21

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> > 2.2.20pre11
> > o	Security fixes
> > 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> 
> Care to elaborate?

On a list that reaches US citizens - no. File permissions and userids may
constitute and be used for rights management.

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bert hubert]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:30:02PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:

> > > o	Security fixes
> > > 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> > 
> > Care to elaborate?
> 
> On a list that reaches US citizens - no. File permissions and userids may
> constitute and be used for rights management.

I may be a bit simple today, but I still don't get it. In what way does the
DMCA (horrible as it is) apply to our own software, which we in know way
'reverse engineered'?

Are you saying that we can't divulge security problems in our own software
anymore for fear of being sued by affected parties?

Regards,

bert

-- 
http://www.PowerDNS.com          Versatile DNS Software & Services
Trilab                                 The Technology People
Netherlabs BV / Rent-a-Nerd.nl           - Nerd Available -
'SYN! .. SYN|ACK! .. ACK!' - the mating call of the internet

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> Are you saying that we can't divulge security problems in our own software
> anymore for fear of being sued by affected parties?

Not even affected parties - the government can do it too without anyone else
and indeed even if their are contractual agreements between parties
permitting the data to be released..

I hope to have the security stuff up on a non US citizen accessible site in
time for 2.2.20 final

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Matthias Andree]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> > Are you saying that we can't divulge security problems in our own software
> > anymore for fear of being sued by affected parties?
> 
> Not even affected parties - the government can do it too without anyone else
> and indeed even if their are contractual agreements between parties
> permitting the data to be released..
> 
> I hope to have the security stuff up on a non US citizen accessible site in
> time for 2.2.20 final

Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't work
out.

Seriously, are you kidding?

-- 
Matthias Andree

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bert hubert]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:55:12PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > Are you saying that we can't divulge security problems in our own software
> > anymore for fear of being sued by affected parties?
> 
> Not even affected parties - the government can do it too without anyone else
> and indeed even if their are contractual agreements between parties
> permitting the data to be released..

This is getting daft in a hurry.

> I hope to have the security stuff up on a non US citizen accessible site in
> time for 2.2.20 final

This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?

'IANAL', and neither are you, are you sure this sillyness is necessary?

Regards,

bert

-- 
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Trilab                                 The Technology People
Netherlabs BV / Rent-a-Nerd.nl           - Nerd Available -
'SYN! .. SYN|ACK! .. ACK!' - the mating call of the internet

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bert hubert]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> 
> US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
(...)
> Its based directly on legal opinion.

Then I suggest we leave this planet.

-- 
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Netherlabs BV / Rent-a-Nerd.nl           - Nerd Available -
'SYN! .. SYN|ACK! .. ACK!' - the mating call of the internet

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
> legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't work
> out.

   "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
    they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."

> Seriously, are you kidding?

The current interpretation of the DMCA is as lunatic as it sounds. With luck
the Sklyarov case will see that overturned on constitutional grounds. Until
then US citizens will have to guess about security issues.

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?

US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.

> 'IANAL', and neither are you, are you sure this sillyness is necessary?

Its based directly on legal opinion.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Rik van Riel]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bert hubert wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> >
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> (...)
> > Its based directly on legal opinion.
>
> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

You suggest we're leaving for The Free World(tm) ? ;)

Btw, does anybody know how to setup HTML click-through
licences ?  ;)  [mmm, need to learn more non-kernel stuff]

cheers,

Rik
-- 
DMCA, SSSCA, W3C?  Who cares?  http://thefreeworld.net/  (volunteers needed)

http://www.surriel.com/		http://distro.conectiva.com/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Roger Gammans]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> 
> US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.

Huh, US resident or US citizens?

If US resident , does that mean we can't send security patches to 
Linus. 

*shakes head*

TTFN
-- 
Roger.
	ashes and diamond,
	foe and friend,
	we _are_ all equal in the end. -- Pink Floyd 

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Luigi Genoni]

Reral problem is that there are also good developers that this way are
cutted out, and cannot give their contrib.

ufff! I tend to belive that politicians make law without a real knoledge
of what they are doing (see Italian law on copyrights)

Luigi

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> > Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
> > legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't work
> > out.
>
>    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
>     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
>
> > Seriously, are you kidding?
>
> The current interpretation of the DMCA is as lunatic as it sounds. With luck
> the Sklyarov case will see that overturned on constitutional grounds. Until
> then US citizens will have to guess about security issues.
>
> Alan
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bert hubert]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:07:03PM +0100, Roger Gammans wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> > 
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> 
> Huh, US resident or US citizens?
> 
> If US resident , does that mean we can't send security patches to 
> Linus. 

You can send him the patch. It appears you cannot tell him which
vulnerability it fixes.

That is, unless the 'code = speech' people have succeded in setting enough
precedent, in which case even 'code' may become a 'circumvention device'! 

I am not a lawyer though, but at this point logic seems so far away that
anything appears possible.

Regards,

bert

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Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Horst von Brand]

bert hubert <ahu@ds9a.nl> said:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> > 
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> (...)
> > Its based directly on legal opinion.

> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

I'd expected an "all the world is USA" delusion from an US citizen, not
from somebody in .nl...
-- 
Dr. Horst H. von Brand                Usuario #22616 counter.li.org
Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Danny ter Haar]

Alan Cox  <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:
>US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.

Are you looking for non-us webspace ?
I'm willing to letyou have full access to www.bzimage.org if 
needed.

Let me know.

Danny

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[David Lang]

and how can you dare send the source code or patches to the US in that
case, it's the same info in a different form.

David Lang

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Roger Gammans wrote:

> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:07:03 +0100
> From: Roger Gammans <roger@computer-surgery.co.uk>
> Reply-To: rgammans@computer-surgery.co.uk
> To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> >
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
>
> Huh, US resident or US citizens?
>
> If US resident , does that mean we can't send security patches to
> Linus.
>
> *shakes head*
>
> TTFN
> --
> Roger.
> 	ashes and diamond,
> 	foe and friend,
> 	we _are_ all equal in the end. -- Pink Floyd
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[bill davidsen]

In article <E15veDQ-0001nl-00@the-village.bc.nu>
alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
| > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
| > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
| 
| US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
| 
| > 'IANAL', and neither are you, are you sure this sillyness is necessary?
| 
| Its based directly on legal opinion.

  And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel source?
I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this country than not
allow computer users access to security issues.

-- 
bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
  His first management concern is not solving the problem, but covering
his ass. If he lived in the middle ages he'd wear his codpiece backward.

[OT] Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[dean gaudet]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bert hubert wrote:

> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

it's unfortunate that the brain drain still brings brains to the US
instead of the other way around.  (i'm guilty.  i'm a canadian working for
a US company.)

-dean

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Andreas D. Landmark]

At 22.10.2001 17:20, bill davidsen wrote:
>   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel source?
>I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this country than not
>allow computer users access to security issues.

I'd say the DMCA is a good candidate for being worse for computer security
than no security patches...



-- 
Andreas D Landmark / noXtension
Real Time, adj.:
         Here and now, as opposed to fake time, which only occurs there
and then.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Rik van Riel]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bill davidsen wrote:

>   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel
> source? I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this
> country than not allow computer users access to security issues.

Don't worry, there are more than enough kernel hackers
outside of the US to keep maintaining the kernel.

The worst that could happen is that the US cripples
itself by not allowing the kernel hackers outside the
US to publish security info to people in the US, but
only to the rest of the world.

That's tough, they're a democratic country, they can
change the law if it hurts them too much.

cheers,

Rik
-- 
DMCA, SSSCA, W3C?  Who cares?  http://thefreeworld.net/  (volunteers needed)

http://www.surriel.com/		http://distro.conectiva.com/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

>   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel source?

Im not aware of any probl;ems distributing fixed source

> I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this country than not
> allow computer users access to security issues.

As it stands I cannot legally advise the US security services about Linux 
security issues. Normally I'd find this excruciatingly funny but in the
current circumstances its rather less humourous.

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Nick LeRoy]

On Monday 22 October 2001 11:34, Rik van Riel wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bill davidsen wrote:
> >   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel
> > source? I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this
> > country than not allow computer users access to security issues.
>
> Don't worry, there are more than enough kernel hackers
> outside of the US to keep maintaining the kernel.
>
> The worst that could happen is that the US cripples
> itself by not allowing the kernel hackers outside the
> US to publish security info to people in the US, but
> only to the rest of the world.
>
> That's tough, they're a democratic country, they can
> change the law if it hurts them too much.

Rik...

I *wish* it were that simple.  If you don't think that a least some of us 
*try*, you're kidding yourself.  The real problem, IMHO, is that the 
electorate of our country no longer has any real power or control over the 
government -- it's the corporations that do.  Money talks, so the saying 
goes.  He who has the gold makes the rules.

So, please don't punish all of us for the acts of our corrupt system.  We 
just try to make it better in whatever ways we can.  FWIW, the ACLU, EEF, 
etc. are our best hope for a free society.

Thanks

-Nick

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:49AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> 2.2.20pre11
> o	Security fixes
> 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m=100343090106914

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Greg Hennessy]

In article <E15viGk-0002Xu-00@the-village.bc.nu>,
Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:
> As it stands I cannot legally advise the US security services about Linux 
> security issues. Normally I'd find this excruciatingly funny but in the
> current circumstances its rather less humourous.

Which part of the DMCA do you think prohibits this?

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Alan Cox]

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:49AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > 
> > 2.2.20pre11
> > o	Security fixes
> > 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> 
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m=100343090106914

There are other security related changes

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[David S. Miller]

   From: Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
   Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:23:02 +0100 (BST)

   > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m=100343090106914
   
   There are other security related changes

So if you:

1) publish a patch (ie. telling us all the changes)
2) describe the set of changes which are not security
   related (ie. telling us the non-security related
   changes)

By deduction aren't you in fact "telling us what the secutiry related
changes are"? :-)

Franks a lot,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Dominik Kubla]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:40:49PM +0200, Allan Sandfeld wrote:
> On Monday 22 October 2001 12:21, Alan Cox wrote:
> > Things took a bit longer than intended with various security fixes needing
> > to be done. If this tree tests out ok it will be 2.2.20
> >
> > 2.2.20pre11
> > o	Security fixes
> > 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> 
> Why? I didnt think you like it, nor lived in the US?
> 
> If v'ger is in the US, I can understand not putting it in the changelog 
> there. But why not on the mailing list?

Because the mailing list is hosted in the US of A...

Dominik
-- 
ScioByte GmbH    Zum Schiersteiner Grund 2     55127 Mainz (Germany)
Phone: +49 700 724 629 83                    Fax: +49 700 724 629 84

GnuPG: 717F16BB / A384 F5F1 F566 5716 5485  27EF 3B00 C007 717F 16BB

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Alan Cox]

> 1) publish a patch (ie. telling us all the changes)
> 2) describe the set of changes which are not security
>    related (ie. telling us the non-security related
>    changes)
> 
> By deduction aren't you in fact "telling us what the secutiry related
> changes are"? :-)

Not directly, and if you have enough skill to work through the code you
could do so anyway. Whether reading the source code for that purpose is
legal I don't know.

Have fun

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Eli Carter]

Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:49AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > >
> > > 2.2.20pre11
> > > o   Security fixes
> > >     | Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> >
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m=100343090106914
> 
> There are other security related changes

It just hit /.  I wondered how long it would take...

Alan, you've made your point pretty clear to me with this stunt (no
slight intended, I don't have a better word at the moment)...  Though I
have reservations about the method.

Good luck against the /.'ers.  :/

Eli, a U.S. developer
--------------------.     Real Users find the one combination of bizarre
Eli Carter           \ input values that shuts down the system for days.
eli.carter(a)inet.com `-------------------------------------------------

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Dan Hollis]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bert hubert wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> (...)
> > Its based directly on legal opinion.
> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

What, Heavens Gate style?

-Dan
-- 
[-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Dan Hollis]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Horst von Brand wrote:
> bert hubert <ahu@ds9a.nl> said:
> > Then I suggest we leave this planet.
> I'd expected an "all the world is USA" delusion from an US citizen, not
> from somebody in .nl...

The MPAA abducted a norwegian child using police armed with assault
weapons. Alan and other non-us citizens certainly have reason to be
concerned.

-Dan
-- 
[-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

bert hubert wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> >
> > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> (...)
> > Its based directly on legal opinion.
> 
> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

If I could leave I would.

FYI, I am one of those USA people that wrote to Senator Hollings and
others about this new SSSCA stuff, asking him why he wanted to destroy
economic interests (e.g., IBM's), along with showing his utter contempt
for the Constitution of the USA. He'll just killfile it, it isn't what
he wants to hear, he's a child with a loaded gun.
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/19/1546246&mode=thread

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> 
> --
> http://www.PowerDNS.com          Versatile DNS Software & Services
> Trilab                                 The Technology People
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> 'SYN! .. SYN|ACK! .. ACK!' - the mating call of the internet
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
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> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[brian]

> > Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
> > legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't
> > work out.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
>    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
>     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."

While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
is the collateral damage as they call it.

Alan's point being that a population of a State can't be innocent
of the actions of their government, something, by the way, with
which I disagree.

Strange though, while the US has delivered hundreds of millions of US
dollars in aid to Afghanistan both before and after 9/11, Alan would
deny US citizens some of the tools with which to change things at home.

Alan asks us to rebel, but then denies us at least some of the
avenues we might take.  Others claiming for him that he doesn't
want to risk jail.  What if every aid worker in Afghanistan
and elsewhere around the world had the same attitude?

-- 
Brian Litzinger <brian@worldcontrol.com>

    Copyright (c) 2001 By Brian Litzinger, All Rights Reserved

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Gavin Baker]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:30:02PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:

> > > 2.2.20pre11
> > > o	Security fixes
> > > 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
> > 
> > Care to elaborate?
> 
> On a list that reaches US citizens - no. File permissions and userids may
> constitute and be used for rights management.

Alan, are we to assume any future security related patch details are to
be censored until this DMCA madness is over?

In this case, im not sure if its a good idea for anyone to actually
apply these patches until they have read, and understand the code. If
the person in question is not fluent in C, how do they know what they
are patching, or whether to patch it at all without your explanation of
what it does?

If this is the case, im sure lots of websites will spring up, with
blatent disregard for the DMCA, that will fill in the blanks from the
changelogs. People will make a public stand against this insanity.

On the other hand, if the actual code for these security fixes is not
classed as "Details", i dont know what is.

2.5.8 changelog...
o	Security Fixes
	| None applied for fear of the code upsetting the US DMCA
o	VM updates                           (Rik)
o	Some other updates
	| applied, but authors kept anonymous for fear of the DMCA
	| seeing the updates as security issues, also details censored
	| just in case.
o 	etc.

madness.

--
Gavin Baker - UK

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

Horst von Brand wrote:
> 
> bert hubert <ahu@ds9a.nl> said:
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:30:00PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > > > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> > >
> > > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> > (...)
> > > Its based directly on legal opinion.
> 
> > Then I suggest we leave this planet.
> 
> I'd expected an "all the world is USA" delusion from an US citizen, not
> from somebody in .nl...

Racist and prejudiced opinions though are found everywhere. Stereotypes
and arrogance know no boundaries. You mistake being a US citizen with
being a puppet.

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> --
> Dr. Horst H. von Brand                Usuario #22616 counter.li.org
> Departamento de Informatica                     Fono: +56 32 654431
> Universidad Tecnica Federico Santa Maria              +56 32 654239
> Casilla 110-V, Valparaiso, Chile                Fax:  +56 32 797513
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

bill davidsen wrote:
> 
> In article <E15veDQ-0001nl-00@the-village.bc.nu>
> alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
> | > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> | > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
> |
> | US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> |
> | > 'IANAL', and neither are you, are you sure this sillyness is necessary?
> |
> | Its based directly on legal opinion.
> 
>   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel source?
> I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this country than not
> allow computer users access to security issues.

See:
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/19/1546246&mode=thread
http://www.petitiononline.com/SSSCA/petition.html
http://216.110.42.179/docs/hollings.090701.html

Then complain to Senators Hollings and Stevens; they haven't heard of
the Constitution, maybe someone could remind them.

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> 
> --
> bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
>   His first management concern is not solving the problem, but covering
> his ass. If he lived in the middle ages he'd wear his codpiece backward.
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Rik van Riel]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 brian@worldcontrol.com wrote:

> While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that

	[snip drivel on steroids]

> Others claiming for him that he doesn't want to risk jail.

You seem to have claimed as much for (against?) him as
all the others in this thread together. Lets take this
topic elsewhere, shall we ?

Rik
-- 
DMCA, SSSCA, W3C?  Who cares?  http://thefreeworld.net/  (volunteers needed)

http://www.surriel.com/		http://distro.conectiva.com/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

Nick LeRoy wrote:
> 
> On Monday 22 October 2001 11:34, Rik van Riel wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bill davidsen wrote:
> > >   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel
> > > source? I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this
> > > country than not allow computer users access to security issues.
> >
> > Don't worry, there are more than enough kernel hackers
> > outside of the US to keep maintaining the kernel.
> >
> > The worst that could happen is that the US cripples
> > itself by not allowing the kernel hackers outside the
> > US to publish security info to people in the US, but
> > only to the rest of the world.
> >
> > That's tough, they're a democratic country, they can
> > change the law if it hurts them too much.
> 
> Rik...
> 
> I *wish* it were that simple.  If you don't think that a least some of us
> *try*, you're kidding yourself.  The real problem, IMHO, is that the
> electorate of our country no longer has any real power or control over the
> government -- it's the corporations that do.  Money talks, so the saying
> goes.  He who has the gold makes the rules.
> 
> So, please don't punish all of us for the acts of our corrupt system.  We
> just try to make it better in whatever ways we can.  FWIW, the ACLU, EEF,
> etc. are our best hope for a free society.

In one location, I see senator Hollings listed as party
"Democrat-Disney". Disney is another spot to boycott, they are trying to
have Linux and open source o/s's declared illegal to even touch
copyright media...not as a web server, a home machine, or anything (say
bye to IBM's Linux efforts). I think the vote for this killer SSSCA is
somewhere around the 25th of this month, so you better hurry.

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

(PS: I always suspected Mickey Mouse was a member of the Taliban)

> 
> Thanks
> 
> -Nick
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
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> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Gregory Ade]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> > This would then presumably lead to password protected access for US kernel
> > developers that need to know? And some kind of NDA?
>
> US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
>
> > 'IANAL', and neither are you, are you sure this sillyness is necessary?
>
> Its based directly on legal opinion.

<rantmode>

So, then, just to satisfy my curiosity, how long until users of Linux in
the U.S.A. will no longer be allowed to download new kernels?

After all, all it would really take for one of us to find out what was
fixed is to download this patch and go through it line by line, and
examine the context of the changes.

Or are we no longer allowed to look at the sources either?

I'm really confused by this gesture.  You're talking about both sides of
your mouth by telling us that "US kernel developers cannot be told" and at
the same time releasing the source/patch to the world.

Make up your mind.

</rantmode>

I guess I was wrong about the Linux kernel being Open Source and freely
available and distributable.

- -- 
Gregory K. Ade <gkade@unnerving.org>
http://unnerving.org/~gkade
OpenPGP Key ID: EAF4844B  keyserver: pgpkeys.mit.edu
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Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Doug McNaught]

"D. Stimits" <stimits@idcomm.com> writes:

> In one location, I see senator Hollings listed as party
> "Democrat-Disney". Disney is another spot to boycott, they are trying to
> have Linux and open source o/s's declared illegal to even touch
> copyright media...not as a web server, a home machine, or anything (say
> bye to IBM's Linux efforts). I think the vote for this killer SSSCA is
> somewhere around the 25th of this month, so you better hurry.

Committee hearings, not a vote.

-Doug
-- 
Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
   --T. J. Jackson, 1863

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Gregory Ade]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Rik van Riel wrote:

> That's tough, they're a democratic country, they can
> change the law if it hurts them too much.

No, it's a Republic.  More specifically, a representative democracy, which
means that we're at the mercy of the people we've given license to
represent us.  They make all sorts of promises to get in office, and then
go do their own damn thing anyway.

Unfortunately, the people I vote for never make it in to office, but
that's fodder for an entirely off-topic debate (flamewar?) on American
Politics.  But, because I at least voted, I reserve the right to bitch
about what the people in office are doing. =)

I've written my representatives and voiced my opinions, but apparently
I'm of such a small minority that I think I'm being ignored.

- -- 
Gregory K. Ade <gkade@unnerving.org>
http://unnerving.org/~gkade
OpenPGP Key ID: EAF4844B  keyserver: pgpkeys.mit.edu
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=wkYl
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Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 brian@worldcontrol.com wrote:

> > > Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
> > > legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't
> > > work out.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> 
> While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> is the collateral damage as they call it.
> 
> Alan's point being that a population of a State can't be innocent
> of the actions of their government, something, by the way, with
> which I disagree.
> 
[SNIPPED...]

Once the government controls the schools, children learn what the
government wants them to learn. This knowledge becomes "fact" even
though it may be illogical and have no technical basis. Once the
United States government gained a toe-hold in the schools in the
1948 "School Lunch Program", the result was clear and the future
certain. Now we have socialist teachers teaching future socialist
legislators.

I am certain that the same problem exists with all governments,
even the United Kingdom. I don't think Alan is anti-American,
merely having been blinded by his own schooling. The days of
the patriots who declared; "Give me liberty or give me death!"
are long gone everywhere. Now we have, instead, those who declare;
"Give me a job so I can feed my family...". Anything the government
promises, that makes that job easier, or more readily available,
is accepted as the price of liberty when, if fact, there is no
liberty involved whatsoever. I read a quote in one of the IEEE
rags where Alan stated that he was afraid that he'd be arrested
if he entered the United States.  I don't think he has too
much to worry about, the United States government didn't even
"provide for the common defense" (preamble to the US Constitution)
as became obvious on 9/11. I'm sure nobody would wake up even if
Alan was a terrorist.

I believe that we should have sent a tactical nuclear cruise
missile to Ben Laden's last known address. We can always apologize
later. This would put future terrorists on notice that if you
tweak the tiger's tail, you get hurt. But, that's why I'm
not a politician. Instead, we've got so-called government leader-
ship that is running around the world kissing ass. I don't need
some government to apologize for my existence. I need a government
to "provide for the common defense..." as required by the United
States Constitution.

Sorry about the off-topic.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson

Penguin : Linux version 2.4.1 on an i686 machine (799.53 BogoMips).

    I was going to compile a list of innovations that could be
    attributed to Microsoft. Once I realized that Ctrl-Alt-Del
    was handled in the BIOS, I found that there aren't any.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> So, then, just to satisfy my curiosity, how long until users of Linux in
> the U.S.A. will no longer be allowed to download new kernels?

Potentially about 12 months after the SSSCA is passed. At which point you may
well find only a binary only OS with enforced copy management is legal in
the USA.

> I guess I was wrong about the Linux kernel being Open Source and freely
> available and distributable.

It is, subject to the law of the various countries concerned.

Alan

linux-kernel-legal? was (Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10)

[Mr. Shannon Aldinger]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Gregory Ade wrote:

> No, it's a Republic.  More specifically, a representative democracy, which
> means that we're at the mercy of the people we've given license to
> represent us.  They make all sorts of promises to get in office, and then
> go do their own damn thing anyway.
>

Here I thought we had Republicans fighting to make the US a republic and
Democrats fighting to make it a Democracy. Oh well, my mistake. Can
someone start a seperate mailing list maybe linux-kernel-legal. It would
be a good place for this and discussion of any other new laws, US and
other that effect the kernel hackers. As a bonus it wouldn't distract from
the patches.



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Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> 
> While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> is the collateral damage as they call it.

That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read 
totally inappropriate things into it. 

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> United States government gained a toe-hold in the schools in the
> 1948 "School Lunch Program", the result was clear and the future
> certain. Now we have socialist teachers teaching future socialist
> legislators.

I think that you need to learn the difference between socialism and
stalinist statism - what you are describing is the USSR, which was of
course the other major state that imprisoned people for wanting to make
copies as part of free speech, and which controlled copying devices with
laws.

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Richard B. Johnson]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> > United States government gained a toe-hold in the schools in the
> > 1948 "School Lunch Program", the result was clear and the future
> > certain. Now we have socialist teachers teaching future socialist
> > legislators.
> 
> I think that you need to learn the difference between socialism and
> stalinist statism - what you are describing is the USSR, which was of
> course the other major state that imprisoned people for wanting to make
> copies as part of free speech, and which controlled copying devices with
> laws.
> 

Sorry. I got confused. With the government reading everything we
type, I tend to get the countries mixed.

Cheers,
Dick Johnson

Penguin : Linux version 2.4.1 on an i686 machine (799.53 BogoMips).

    I was going to compile a list of innovations that could be
    attributed to Microsoft. Once I realized that Ctrl-Alt-Del
    was handled in the BIOS, I found that there aren't any.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

Doug McNaught wrote:
> 
> "D. Stimits" <stimits@idcomm.com> writes:
> 
> > In one location, I see senator Hollings listed as party
> > "Democrat-Disney". Disney is another spot to boycott, they are trying to
> > have Linux and open source o/s's declared illegal to even touch
> > copyright media...not as a web server, a home machine, or anything (say
> > bye to IBM's Linux efforts). I think the vote for this killer SSSCA is
> > somewhere around the 25th of this month, so you better hurry.
> 
> Committee hearings, not a vote.

Even better...as much influence against Disney and politicians that
support SSSCA should be put in as soon as possible. Would you rather
have your input a few days before a final vote, or while minds could
still be open? SSSCA is more dangerous than the Taliban, all the Taliban
can kill are people...SSSCA can kill more than that.

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> 
> -Doug
> --
> Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
>    --T. J. Jackson, 1863
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Jussi Laako]

Rik van Riel wrote:
> 
> The worst that could happen is that the US cripples
> itself by not allowing the kernel hackers outside the
> US to publish security info to people in the US, but
> only to the rest of the world.

Unless they pressure foreign governments to make similar laws as we have
seen with Wassenaar arrangement and few other cases...


	- Jussi Laako

-- 
PGP key fingerprint: 161D 6FED 6A92 39E2 EB5B  39DD A4DE 63EB C216 1E4B
Available at PGP keyservers

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Gerhard Mack]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> > So, then, just to satisfy my curiosity, how long until users of Linux in
> > the U.S.A. will no longer be allowed to download new kernels?
> 
> Potentially about 12 months after the SSSCA is passed. At which point you may
> well find only a binary only OS with enforced copy management is legal in
> the USA.
> 
> > I guess I was wrong about the Linux kernel being Open Source and freely
> > available and distributable.
> 
> It is, subject to the law of the various countries concerned.
> 
> Alan

Has it become time for a non-us.vger.kernel.org ??

--
Gerhard Mack

gmack@innerfire.net

<>< As a computer I find your faith in technology amusing.

Re: linux-kernel-legal? was

[David S. Miller]

   From: "Mr. Shannon Aldinger" <god@yinyang.hjsoft.com>
   Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:21:23 -0400 (EDT)
   
   Here I thought we had Republicans fighting to make the US a republic and
   Democrats fighting to make it a Democracy. Oh well, my mistake. Can
   someone start a seperate mailing list maybe linux-kernel-legal. It would
   be a good place for this and discussion of any other new laws, US and
   other that effect the kernel hackers. As a bonus it wouldn't distract from
   the patches.

The EFF and many other organizations concerned about the DMCA issues
have suitable public lists for discussion of this topic.  I do not see
a need for a new vger list.

You can just as well take this 2.2.x changelog thread there.  In fact,
they're probably already talking about it :-)

Franks a lot,
David S. Miller
davem@redhat.com

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Bill Davidsen]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Rik van Riel wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, bill davidsen wrote:
> 
> >   And who will be maintaining the world and us-castrated kernel
> > source? I can't imagine anything worse for the security of this
> > country than not allow computer users access to security issues.
> 
> Don't worry, there are more than enough kernel hackers
> outside of the US to keep maintaining the kernel.

Last I heard Linus was in the USA, his not being able to participate in
security discussions worries me very much. Ditto Redhat and IBM.

-- 
bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
  CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Dan Hollis]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Last I heard Linus was in the USA, his not being able to participate in
> security discussions worries me very much. Ditto Redhat and IBM.

I wonder if Linus has an exit-usa plan in case the SSSCA passes.
If the SSSCA does pass, Linus would be in extreme danger.

-Dan
-- 
[-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Tony Hoyle]

In the ancient scrolls of Usenet, page
<Pine.LNX.4.30.0110221508450.19190-100000@anime.net>, "Dan Hollis"
<goemon@anime.net> spake thus:

> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Bill Davidsen wrote:
>> Last I heard Linus was in the USA, his not being able to participate in
>> security discussions worries me very much. Ditto Redhat and IBM.
> 
> I wonder if Linus has an exit-usa plan in case the SSSCA passes. If the
> SSSCA does pass, Linus would be in extreme danger.

It wouldn't surprise me if half of silicon valley had an exit plan...
The fallout will be fun to watch from 3000 miles away :-)

Tony

-- 
"Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on
 ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)"  -- Linus Torvalds

tmh@nothing-on.tv	http://www.nothing-on.tv

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Steven Walter]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > 
> > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> 
> That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read 
> totally inappropriate things into it. 

Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
nation, state, or country.
-- 
-Steven
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
			-- George Orwell
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.
			-- George Orwell
Those that would give up a necessary freedom for temporary safety
deserver neither freedom nor safety.
			-- Ben Franklin

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[David Ford]

I assume since you are using Sklyarov as an example that you fully 
intend to prevent Linus from getting such information as well?

This reaction is ludicrous.

Instead of helping US people, now the US people are fighting both US 
politicians and their own camp of code developers.

David

Alan Cox wrote:

>>Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
>>legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't work
>>out.
>>
>
>   "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
>    they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
>
>>Seriously, are you kidding?
>>
>
>The current interpretation of the DMCA is as lunatic as it sounds. With luck
>the Sklyarov case will see that overturned on constitutional grounds. Until
>then US citizens will have to guess about security issues.
>
>Alan
>

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Luigi Genoni]

That means USA are not a democracy anymore, but a elegible oligarcy!
that is exactly what you wrote!

If it is so, stop to call you a democracy.
but, untill USA citizens call USA a democracy, and they
go to vote, people have the power to change things. Real problem is
INFORMATION!
Alan is right with what he is doing. But we should do something so that
ALL USA citizens will be informed!!!

Luigi


On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Nick LeRoy wrote:

>
> I *wish* it were that simple.  If you don't think that a least some of us
> *try*, you're kidding yourself.  The real problem, IMHO, is that the
> electorate of our country no longer has any real power or control over the
> government -- it's the corporations that do.  Money talks, so the saying
> goes.  He who has the gold makes the rules.
>
> So, please don't punish all of us for the acts of our corrupt system.  We
> just try to make it better in whatever ways we can.  FWIW, the ACLU, EEF,
> etc. are our best hope for a free society.
>
> Thanks
>
> -Nick
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
>

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Mike Fedyk]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:45:02PM -0500, Steven Walter wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > > 
> > > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > 
> > That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read 
> > totally inappropriate things into it. 
> 
> Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> nation, state, or country.

And how is someone from a forien country going to see just how much or how
little you have rebelled against the DMCA?  We allowed the law to be passed
so now we should take the blame?

Like some have already said, we have politicians that promise one thing, and
do whatever the hell they want after they're in office.  It depends on how
much they stick to their promisses when comes election time in 2-4 years
that determines wheather they stay there...

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Alan Cox]

> This reaction is ludicrous.
> 
> Instead of helping US people, now the US people are fighting both US 
> politicians and their own camp of code developers.

I dont see why I should risk 5 years in a US jail. Not my problem.
Fortunately the major vendors kernel development teams are all non US based.

Alan

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Steven Walter]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:07:49PM -0700, Mike Fedyk wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:45:02PM -0500, Steven Walter wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > > > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > > > 
> > > > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > > > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > > > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > > > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > > 
> > > That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read 
> > > totally inappropriate things into it. 
> > 
> > Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> > the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> > everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> > the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> > worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> > can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> > nation, state, or country.
> 
> And how is someone from a forien country going to see just how much or how
> little you have rebelled against the DMCA?  We allowed the law to be passed
> so now we should take the blame?
> 
> Like some have already said, we have politicians that promise one thing, and
> do whatever the hell they want after they're in office.  It depends on how
> much they stick to their promisses when comes election time in 2-4 years
> that determines wheather they stay there...

Eh?  Perhaps it was unclear that I was speaking in a broader sense, thus
being more off-topic than most.  The DMCA is collectively our (U.S.
Citizens') fault.  We must now work to correct it.  Just as the Taliban
is at least partially the Afghan people's fault.  See?
-- 
-Steven
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
			-- George Orwell
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.
			-- George Orwell
Those that would give up a necessary freedom for temporary safety
deserver neither freedom nor safety.
			-- Ben Franklin

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

Luigi Genoni wrote:
> 
> That means USA are not a democracy anymore, but a elegible oligarcy!
> that is exactly what you wrote!
> 
> If it is so, stop to call you a democracy.
> but, untill USA citizens call USA a democracy, and they
> go to vote, people have the power to change things. Real problem is
> INFORMATION!
> Alan is right with what he is doing. But we should do something so that
> ALL USA citizens will be informed!!!

Who told you the USA was a democracy? Never has, never will be. It is a
democratic republic. ENORMOUS difference.

I consider it supportive that someone outside the USA is "drawing the
line". The buck has to stop somewhere. The sooner the s*it hits the fan,
the better. The damage caused by excess corporate influence is one place
that needs a line drawn, and politicians willing to join in creating
collateral damage against their own people in some demented and wrong
idea of real security is another ("hey, son, you have a wart on that
finger, better amputate the arm").

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> 
> Luigi
> 
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Nick LeRoy wrote:
> 
> >
> > I *wish* it were that simple.  If you don't think that a least some of us
> > *try*, you're kidding yourself.  The real problem, IMHO, is that the
> > electorate of our country no longer has any real power or control over the
> > government -- it's the corporations that do.  Money talks, so the saying
> > goes.  He who has the gold makes the rules.
> >
> > So, please don't punish all of us for the acts of our corrupt system.  We
> > just try to make it better in whatever ways we can.  FWIW, the ACLU, EEF,
> > etc. are our best hope for a free society.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > -Nick
> > -
> > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> > More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> > Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/
> >
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Mike Fedyk]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 12:15:00AM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > This reaction is ludicrous.
> > 
> > Instead of helping US people, now the US people are fighting both US 
> > politicians and their own camp of code developers.
> 
> I dont see why I should risk 5 years in a US jail. Not my problem.
> Fortunately the major vendors kernel development teams are all non US based.
> 

You still didn't answer the qustion of wheather you are going to give
descriptions to Linus in the US of A...

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[D. Stimits]

David Ford wrote:
> 
> I assume since you are using Sklyarov as an example that you fully
> intend to prevent Linus from getting such information as well?
> 
> This reaction is ludicrous.
> 
> Instead of helping US people, now the US people are fighting both US
> politicians and their own camp of code developers.

And there is the real danger of terrorism. Someone once wrote a book
(called "The Art of War") that describes it. It's the realm of "divide
and conquer". It brings a lot of people together to finally agree on
things when they wouldn't even talk to each other. But it also brings
together the "bad" things. These laws are dangerous because they add to
the terrorist concept of divide and conquer, only now we're sponsoring
it against ourselves, and companies like Disney and much of the
entertainment industry finds it profitable to join the momentum, it's
profitable for them.

D. Stimits, stimits@idcomm.com

> 
> David
> 
> Alan Cox wrote:
> 
> >>Putting pressure on US people to have them influence their
> >>legislation? Aka. every people have the rulers they deserve? Won't work
> >>out.
> >>
> >
> >   "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> >    they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> >
> >>Seriously, are you kidding?
> >>
> >
> >The current interpretation of the DMCA is as lunatic as it sounds. With luck
> >the Sklyarov case will see that overturned on constitutional grounds. Until
> >then US citizens will have to guess about security issues.
> >
> >Alan
> >
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Jonathan Lundell]

At 5:45 PM -0500 10/22/01, Steven Walter wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
>>  > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
>>  > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
>>  > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
>>  >
>>  > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
>>  > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
>>  > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
>>  > is the collateral damage as they call it.
>>
>>  That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read
>>  totally inappropriate things into it.
>
>Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
>the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
>everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
>the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
>worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
>can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
>nation, state, or country.

That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you 
get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of 
consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.

-- 
/Jonathan Lundell.

Leaving the planet [Was Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10]

[Sam Vilain]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:25:05 +0200
bert hubert <ahu@ds9a.nl> wrote:

 > US kernel developers cannot be told. Period.
> (...)
> > Its based directly on legal opinion.
> Then I suggest we leave this planet.

       _     _ _______ _______  ______      __   __ _______   /
       |_____| |______ |_____| |_____/        \_/   |______  /
       |     | |______ |     | |    \_         |    |______ .
                                                         
		   +------------------------------+
		   | THE DECLARATION OF EVOLUTION |
		   +------------------------------+
 _ _ _ 
| | | | HEN in the course of organic evolution it becomes obvious that
| | | | a mutational process is inevitably dissolving the physical and
|__/_/ neurological bonds which connect the members of one generation
to the past and inevitably directing them to assume among the species
of Earth the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature
and Nature's God entitle them, a decent concern for the harmony of
species requires that the causes of the mutation should be declared.

We hold these truths to be self evident:

   * That all species are created different but equal;

   * That they are endowed, each one, with certain inalienable rights;

   * That among them are Freedom to Live, Freedom to Grow, and Freedom
     to pursue Happiness in their own style;

   * That to protect these God-given rights, social structures
     naturally emerge, basing their authority on the principles of
     love of God and respect for all forms of life;

   * That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of life,
     liberty, and harmony, it is the organic duty of the young members
     of that species to mutate, to drop out, to initiate a new social
     structure, laying its foundations on such principles and
     organizing its power in such form as seems likely to produce the
     safety, happiness, and harmony of all sentient beings.

 Genetic wisdom, indeed, suggests that social structures long
established should not be discarded for frivolous reasons and
transient causes. The ecstasy of mutation is equally balanced by the
pain. Accordingly all experience shows that members of a species are
more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, rather than to
discard the forms to which they are accustomed.

 But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, all pursuing
invariably the same destructive goals, threaten the very fabric of
organic life and the serene harmony of the planet, it is the right, it
is the organic duty to drop out of such morbid covenants and to evolve
new loving social structures.

 Such has been the patient sufferance of the freedom-loving peoples of
this earth, and such is now the necessity which constrains us to form
new systems of government.

 The history of the white, menopausal, mendacious men now ruling the
planet earth is a history of repeated violation of the harmonious laws
of nature, all having the direct object of establishing a tyranny of
the materialistic aging over the gentle, the peace-loving, the young,
the colored. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to the judgement of
generations to come.

   * These old, white rulers have maintained a continuous war against
     other species of life, enslaving and destroying at whim fowl,
     fish, animals and spreading a lethal carpet of concrete and metal
     over the soft body of earth.

   * They have maintained as well a continual state of war among
     themselves and against the colored races, the freedom-loving, the
     gentle, the young. Genocide is their habit.

   * They have instituted artificial scarcities, denying peaceful folk
     the natural inheritance of earth's abundance and God's endowment.

   * They have glorified material values and degraded the spiritual.

   * They have claimed private, personal ownership of God's land,
     driving by force of arms the gentle from passage on the earth.

   * In their greed they have erected artificial immigration and
     customs barriers, preventing the free movement of people.

   * In their lust for control they have set up systems of compulsory
     education to coerce the minds of the children and to destroy the
     wisdom and innocence of the playful young.

   * In their lust for power they have controlled all means of
     communication to prevent the free flow of ideas and to block
     loving exchanges among the gentle.

   * In their fear they have instituted great armies of secret police
     to spy upon the privacy of the pacific.

   * In their anger they have coerced the peaceful young against their
     will to join their armies and to wage murderous wars against the
     young and gentle of other countries.

   * In their greed they have made the manufacture and selling of
     weapons the basis of their economies.

   * For profit they have polluted the air, the rivers, the seas.

   * In their impotence they have glorified murder, violence, and
     unnatural sex in their mass media.

   * In their aging greed they have set up an economic system which
     favors age over youth.

   * They have in every way attempted to impose a robot uniformity and
     to crush variety, individuality, and independence of thought.

   * In their greed, they have instituted political systems which
     perpetuate rule by the aging and force youth to choose between
     plastic conformity or despairing alienation.

   * They have invaded privacy by illegal search, unwarranted arrest,
     and contemptuous harassment.

   * They have enlisted an army of informers.

   * In their greed they sponsor the consumption of deadly tars and
     sugars and employ cruel and unusual punishment of the possession
     of life-giving alkaloids and acids.

   * They never admit a mistake. They unceasingly trumpet the virtue
     of greed and war. In their advertising and in their manipulation
     of information they make a fetish out of blatant falsity and
     pious self-enhancement. Their obvious errors only stimulate them to
     greater error and noisier self-approval.

   * They are bores.

   * They hate beauty.

   * They hate sex.

   * They hate life.

 We have warned them from time to time to their inequities and
blindness. We have addressed every available appeal to their withered
sense of righteousness. We have tried to make them laugh. We have
prophesied in detail the terror they are perpetuating. But they have
been deaf to the weeping of the poor, the anguish of the colored, the
rocking mockery of the young, the warnings of their poets. Worshipping
only force and money, they listen only to force and money. But we
shall no longer talk in these grim tongues.

 We must therefore acquiesce to genetic necessity, detach ourselves
from their uncaring madness and hold them henceforth as we hold the
rest of God's creatures - in harmony, life brothers, in their excess,
menaces to life.

 We, therefore, God-loving, peace-loving, life-loving, fun-loving men
and women, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the Universe for the
rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the Authority of
all sentient beings who seek gently to evolve on this planet, solemnly
publish and declare that we are free and independent, and that we are
absolved from all Allegiance to the United States Government and all
governments controlled by the menopausal, and that grouping ourselves
into tribes of like-minded fellows, we claim full power to live and
move on the land, obtain sustenance with our own hands and minds in
the style which seems sacred and holy to us, and to do all Acts and
Things which independent Freemen and Freewomen may of right do without
infringing on the same rights of other species and groups to do their
own thing.

 And for the support of this Declaration of Evolution with a firm
reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, and serenely
confident of the approval of generations to come, in whose name we
speak, do we now mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our
Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor.

   -- Dr. Timothy Leary, Ph.D.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Steven Walter]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:02PM -0700, Jonathan Lundell wrote:
> >>  > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> >>  > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> >>  >
> >>  > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> >>  > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> >>  > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> >>  > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> >>
> >>  That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read
> >>  totally inappropriate things into it.
> >
> >Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> >the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> >everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> >the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> >worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> >can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> >nation, state, or country.
> 
> That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you 
> get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of 
> consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.

Seems like, but isn't.  It's every citizen's responsibility to be aware
of the matters concerning the State.  If they aren't, then again it is
their own fault.
-- 
-Steven
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
			-- George Orwell
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.
			-- George Orwell
Those that would give up a necessary freedom for temporary safety
deserver neither freedom nor safety.
			-- Ben Franklin

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Sam Vilain]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:27:22 -0700
brian@worldcontrol.com wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> is the collateral damage as they call it.

*plonk*

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Jonathan Lundell]

At 6:47 PM -0500 10/22/01, Steven Walter wrote:
>  > That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you
>>  get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of
>>  consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.
>
>Seems like, but isn't.  It's every citizen's responsibility to be aware
>of the matters concerning the State.  If they aren't, then again it is
>their own fault.

I don't quarrel with the fact that you assert that. However, it does 
not follow from Alan's statement.

And if non-rebellion by a citizenry against immoral behavior by its 
government justifies the slaughter of that citizenry, then, to quote 
Jefferson in a slightly different context, " Indeed I tremble for my 
country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot 
sleep forever."
-- 
/Jonathan Lundell.

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Luigi Genoni]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, D. Stimits wrote:

> Luigi Genoni wrote:
> >
> > That means USA are not a democracy anymore, but a elegible oligarcy!
> > that is exactly what you wrote!
> >
> > If it is so, stop to call you a democracy.
> > but, untill USA citizens call USA a democracy, and they
> > go to vote, people have the power to change things. Real problem is
> > INFORMATION!
> > Alan is right with what he is doing. But we should do something so that
> > ALL USA citizens will be informed!!!
>
> Who told you the USA was a democracy? Never has, never will be. It is a
> democratic republic. ENORMOUS difference.
sorry for bad english. I was refering to greek meaning ot the work
democratia, that implies, of course, a democratic republic way of
government, because citizens are too many for direct cratia, do they need
a way to get an indirect cratia.
>
> I consider it supportive that someone outside the USA is "drawing the
> line". The buck has to stop somewhere. The sooner the s*it hits the fan,
> the better. The damage caused by excess corporate influence is one place
> that needs a line drawn, and politicians willing to join in creating
> collateral damage against their own people in some demented and wrong
> idea of real security is another ("hey, son, you have a wart on that
> finger, better amputate the arm").
>
agreed

Luigi

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Michael Rothwell]

> If it is so, stop to call you a democracy.

Okay, call us a Republic instead. ;)

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Jeff Golds]

Steven Walter wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:02PM -0700, Jonathan Lundell wrote:
> > >>  > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > >>  > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > >>  >
> > >>  > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > >>  > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > >>  > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > >>  > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > >>
> > >>  That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read
> > >>  totally inappropriate things into it.
> > >
> > >Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> > >the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> > >everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> > >the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> > >worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> > >can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> > >nation, state, or country.
> >
> > That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you
> > get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of
> > consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.
> 
> Seems like, but isn't.  It's every citizen's responsibility to be aware
> of the matters concerning the State.  If they aren't, then again it is
> their own fault.

That might be true in a democracy, but what do you do when you don't
live in such a place?  What if your government was not democractic but
"whoever has the most guns".  Are you saying that people who don't rebel
against people with guns are consenting?

Also, how can "every citizen be aware of the matters concerning the
State" when you live in a society where the State controls the media?

-Jeff

-- 
Jeff Golds
Sr. Software Engineer
jgolds@resilience.com

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Steven Walter]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:01:02PM -0700, Jeff Golds wrote:
> > > >>  > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > > >>  > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > > >>  >
> > > >>  > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > > >>  > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > > >>  > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > > >>  > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > > >>
> > > >>  That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read
> > > >>  totally inappropriate things into it.
> > > >
> > > >Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> > > >the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> > > >everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> > > >the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> > > >worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> > > >can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> > > >nation, state, or country.
> > >
> > > That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you
> > > get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of
> > > consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.
> > 
> > Seems like, but isn't.  It's every citizen's responsibility to be aware
> > of the matters concerning the State.  If they aren't, then again it is
> > their own fault.
> 
> That might be true in a democracy, but what do you do when you don't
> live in such a place?  What if your government was not democractic but
> "whoever has the most guns".  Are you saying that people who don't rebel
> against people with guns are consenting?

Of course.  It's naturally understandable that they don't rebel, but
that's the case, at least.  Democratic society did not spring overnight.
It was hard won through centuries of standing up against 'the people
with guns,' even if the people with guns had swords, bows and arrows,
cannons, rifles, etc., instead.

> Also, how can "every citizen be aware of the matters concerning the
> State" when you live in a society where the State controls the media?

Again, see above.  Others have managed it.  No one is saying its easy,
only possible.

And again, I don't hold the fact that the unarmed Afghans don't rebel
against them.  As I said it's completely understandable.  I don't think
they deserve to be killed.  I'm only saying that a good argument can be
made that they are completely responsible for their government, directly
or indirectly.
-- 
-Steven
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
			-- George Orwell
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.
			-- George Orwell
Those that would give up a necessary freedom for temporary safety
deserver neither freedom nor safety.
			-- Ben Franklin

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Steven Walter]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:58:48PM -0700, Jonathan Lundell wrote:
> At 6:47 PM -0500 10/22/01, Steven Walter wrote:
> >  > That seems like a willful misreading of the original. Where did you
> >>  get "consent"? Alan suggests that non-rebellion implies lack of
> >>  consciousness, which doesn't imply consent.
> >
> >Seems like, but isn't.  It's every citizen's responsibility to be aware
> >of the matters concerning the State.  If they aren't, then again it is
> >their own fault.
> 
> I don't quarrel with the fact that you assert that. However, it does 
> not follow from Alan's statement.

My logic is that a lack of rebellion implies consent.  If you don't
rebel against it, then you must agree with it.  If you don't agree with it,
then you must rebel against it.  Is there a flaw in that logic?  Surely,
there are degrees to it, i.e., you disagree, but not enough to be
killed.  However, in what is practically the scenario now (either
they're are killed by the Taliban for disagreeing or killed by Americans
for agreeing), it only makes sense to align yourself with the same side
as your heart.

> And if non-rebellion by a citizenry against immoral behavior by its 
> government justifies the slaughter of that citizenry, then, to quote 
> Jefferson in a slightly different context, " Indeed I tremble for my 
> country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot 
> sleep forever."
> -- 
> /Jonathan Lundell.

-- 
-Steven
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
			-- George Orwell
Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. War is peace.
			-- George Orwell
Those that would give up a necessary freedom for temporary safety
deserver neither freedom nor safety.
			-- Ben Franklin

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Nicholas Dronen]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:45:02PM -0500, Steven Walter wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > > 
> > > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > 
> > That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read 
> > totally inappropriate things into it. 
> 
> Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> nation, state, or country.

Rather, they have not rebelled *successfully*.  The country
is in civil war.  The Taliban are not regarded as a legitimate
government.  Until shortly after 9/11, only three governments
recognized the Taliban diplomatically -- the Wahhabist Saudi
Arabia, the militarist Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates.
(The standing representative of Afghanistan in the United Nations
is *not* of the Taliban.)

Finally, Afghani women have risked their lives and been beaten and
killed for their protests and activities.

	http://www.rawa.org/

I witnessed a film just this weekend of an Afghani woman being
shot to death by a member of the Taliban.  The film was taken
by a woman who herself risked her life by carrying a video camera
under her clothing.

So, infer what you will about Mr. Cox's statement, but don't
breezily justify the death of innocent civilians (Afghani or
otherwise) in part by disregarding such all-too-inconvenient
details.

Regards,

Nicholas Dronen

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Paul P Komkoff Jr]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Replying to Alan Cox:
> I think that you need to learn the difference between socialism and
> stalinist statism - what you are describing is the USSR, which was of
> course the other major state that imprisoned people for wanting to make
> copies as part of free speech, and which controlled copying devices with
> laws.

Not only copying devices - every typewriter also needed to be registered
here "that days" :) we was denied not to only copy but to say anything own
too.

And about restricting copying devices - somebody trying the same in computer
industry, yeah? to deny cd-recorders 'coz they can be used to violate
somebody so-called-copyright, er

and I finish with an usual in this cases (translated from russian) -
"The author thanks the alphabet for kindly given letters"

- -- 
Paul P 'Stingray' Komkoff 'Greatest' Jr // (icq)23200764 // (irc)Spacebar
  PPKJ1-RIPE // (smtp)i@stingr.net // (http)stingr.net // (pgp)0xA4B4ECA4
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iEYEAREDAAYFAjvVBpEACgkQyMW8naS07KRseACbBry5lcKVGXa9juDVoUSjkj1K
S/EAoKQYaf+2wiXpgc8mrMzU+AzHUU+N
=9Qi3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Nick LeRoy]

On Monday 22 October 2001 17:16, Tony Hoyle wrote:
> In the ancient scrolls of Usenet, page
> <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110221508450.19190-100000@anime.net>, "Dan Hollis"
>
> <goemon@anime.net> spake thus:
> > On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> >> Last I heard Linus was in the USA, his not being able to participate in
> >> security discussions worries me very much. Ditto Redhat and IBM.
> >
> > I wonder if Linus has an exit-usa plan in case the SSSCA passes. If the
> > SSSCA does pass, Linus would be in extreme danger.
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if half of silicon valley had an exit plan...
> The fallout will be fun to watch from 3000 miles away :-)
>
> Tony

I'm not sure if anybody else has heard this yet, but apparently a number of 
big software corps, including M$ & IBM have come out AGAINST the SSSCA.  This 
is good news.

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-23-008-20-NW-BZ-LL

-Nick

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Paul G. Allen]

Mike Fedyk wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:45:02PM -0500, Steven Walter wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:34:28PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:29:14PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > > >    "Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after
> > > > >     they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."
> > > >
> > > > While I've been generally saddened by Alan Cox's and others
> > > > anti-America attitude,  I am somewhat surprised to find that
> > > > Alan believes the US bombing of Afghanistan is justified and so
> > > > is the collateral damage as they call it.
> > >
> > > That quote is rather older than the US bombing of Afghanistan. You read
> > > totally inappropriate things into it.
> >
> > Certainly, it is not.  This statement applies to Afghanistan, in that
> > the fact that they have not rebelled means they imply consent to
> > everything their government does, and therefore are just as guilty as
> > the Taliban.  Therefore, killing civilians (collateral damage) is no
> > worse than killing terrorists or Taliban officials.  This is a stance I
> > can easily subscribe to, not just with Afghanistan but with any people,
> > nation, state, or country.
> 
> And how is someone from a forien country going to see just how much or how
> little you have rebelled against the DMCA?  We allowed the law to be passed
> so now we should take the blame?

No, "we" did not allow the law to pass. It was passed under our noses and is now being interpreted poorly. The DMCA does not remove our rights under copyright
law as written, but it has removed them as interpreted. The interpretation of the written law is the dangerous thing, not the actual written law. Chances are
the DMCA will stand until the US Supreme Court hears a case and makes the proper decision.

The DMCA and laws like it are meant for one thing: to allow entertainment companies to control what we see/read/hear, how we see/read/hear it, where, and when
we see/read/hear it. Since the networks in this country are run by the very same companies that propose and lobby for these laws, we never hear about them
through these channels. The public at large never has a clue until it's too late. Then we get to suffer until the law is overturned (hopefully).

> 
> Like some have already said, we have politicians that promise one thing, and
> do whatever the hell they want after they're in office.  It depends on how
> much they stick to their promisses when comes election time in 2-4 years
> that determines wheather they stay there...

Politicians are allowed to do as they please by the pundits who continue to vote for them, or not vote at all. It also occurs because the same people can't seem
to realize why politicians do this. Short term limits force them to do what the corporations they represent tell them to so that they'll have a job once they
are no longer politicians. The lame idea that we must allow campaign contributions at all allows these same corporations to easily grease their palms. The
public at large seems to think there are only two political parties and there is no other alternative. And it is extremely rare that anyone knows what the law
really is in any given situation, even though it is easily accessed via library or Internet.

Throw in the ridiculous complacency of most Americans, the programming that tells us "I can't make a difference, so why bother.", the lack of understanding of
how the law really works (and it does work well when people know how it works - been there, done that), and the general "I don't give a damn about my neighbor
or my kids." attitude, and we get what we deserve. What we have is a government run by, and for, corporations, and fewer and fewer freedoms than our
Constitution garnets as a result. Usually the Supreme Court fixes these things in time, but in the mean time we're screwed, blued, and tattooed.

Now, as for the DMCA bad SSSCA as it pertains to those outside the US. The FBI operates outside the US. The US has great influence on many countries. Don't
think for a minute that a law passed here will never, ever effect you in your own country. We all live on the same planet and with this "New World Order" crap
we, more and more, are dependent upon each other. Unless we all work together, ping our own governments and publicly pressure them, things will only get worse.
The saying "You can't fight City Hall." is very true if you do it alone, but if you make a spectacle of them, public pressure will far outweigh corporate or
special interest money.

Note also that the SSSCA will destroy most all GPL software in the US. It will also harm the Internet as a whole in a LARGE way because Apache, OpenSSH, Linux,
etc. will become illegal. Companies such as mine will be forced to find alternative ways to run their network. In case you are not aware, most likely you use
Akamai servers every day when you browse the Internet (we have over 12,000 servers in 53+ countries on over 300 networks). Most of our servers run Linux,
OpenSSH, and Apache/Apache SSL (using OpenSSL), as well as Perl and many, many GPL programs. Take all those away, or impose licensing and other costs on them,
and the Internet is a much different, and more expensive, place. Whether it realizes it or not, the SSSCA will greatly harm the US government itself.

I for one will not submit to the SSSCA and DMCA or any other such law that removes any of my constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. I do not vote for either of
the main parties and have a reputation for bitching and moaning to lawyers, law makers, and other authorities whenever my freedom is threatened. I guess it's in
my blood to do so, considering my ancestors did the same when this country was founded. Would that more Americans did the same.

PGA

-- 
Paul G. Allen
UNIX Admin II/Programmer
Akamai Technologies, Inc.
www.akamai.com
Work: (858)909-3630

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Florian Weimer]

Gerhard Mack <gmack@innerfire.net> writes:

> Has it become time for a non-us.vger.kernel.org ??

This whole non-use concept doesn't work.  Even if the server is
located in a free country, traffic might still be routed over US soil.

-- 
Florian Weimer 	                  Florian.Weimer@RUS.Uni-Stuttgart.DE
University of Stuttgart           http://cert.uni-stuttgart.de/
RUS-CERT                          +49-711-685-5973/fax +49-711-685-5898

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Riley Williams]

Hi Alan, Bert.

>> Are you saying that we can't divulge security problems in our own
>> software anymore for fear of being sued by affected parties?

> Not even affected parties - the government can do it too without
> anyone else and indeed even if their are contractual agreements
> between parties permitting the data to be released..

Even if there are contractual agreements REQUIRING the data to be
released between the parties (as currently exists between Lockheed
and the USAF that require the mutual release of certain sensitive
information), the government would have the right to prosecute both
the USAF for releasing the information and Lockheed for accessing
it once it had been released - even if nobody at Lockheed ever read
the information in question.

That is how ludicrous it is.

If the said bill ever becomes law, then the US will of necessity become
a third world nation. However, until the idiots sponsoring it get their
faces muddied, the rest of us have to act in just such an insane way!!!

> I hope to have the security stuff up on a non US citizen accessible
> site in time for 2.2.20 final

That's an impossibility!!! However, if you remove the word "citizen"
from that statement, then it becomes possible.

Best wishes from Riley (a US citizen living in England).

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Rik van Riel]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Alan Cox wrote:

> 2.2.20pre11
> o	Security fixes
> 	| Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA

OK, the changelog is now online, though still in
accordance with the US DMCA (apologies to our
friends in the states):

	http://thefreeworld.net/

kind regards,

Rik
-- 
DMCA, SSSCA, W3C?  Who cares?  http://thefreeworld.net/

http://www.surriel.com/		http://distro.conectiva.com/

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

Dominik Kubla <kubla@sciobyte.de> writes:

>Because the mailing list is hosted in the US of A...

If this is ever a problem, I can offer a box on a 100 MBit pipe to the
various german interconnection points (DE-CIX, MAE-FFM, INXS) here in
Germany any second.

	Regards
		Henning
-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre10

[Henning P. Schmiedehausen]

"Richard B. Johnson" <root@chaos.analogic.com> writes:

>I believe that we should have sent a tactical nuclear cruise
>missile to Ben Laden's last known address. We can always apologize
>later. This would put future terrorists on notice that if you

>From this day on I promise to always firmly side with Al Viro. You're
a jerk. You just proved it one time too much.

I'm glad that I have the privilege of living in Europe and that people
like you don't have power in the U.S.

And your company builds bomb scanners? Do they know about your ideas?
Scary if you ask me.

	Henning

-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen       -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH     hps@intermeta.de

Am Schwabachgrund 22  Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0   info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof     Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20   

Re: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Alan Cox]

> the changes, and publish our findings.  *shrug*

At your own risk - absolutely.

Alan

RE: Linux 2.2.20pre11

[Lakey, Jeremy # IHTUL]

>> 1) publish a patch (ie. telling us all the changes)
>> 2) describe the set of changes which are not security
>>    related (ie. telling us the non-security related
>>    changes)
>> 
>> By deduction aren't you in fact "telling us what the secutiry related 
>> changes are"? :-)
>
>Not directly, and if you have enough skill to work through the code you
could do so anyway. Whether reading >the source code for that purpose is
legal I don't know.
>
>Have fun
>
>Alan

So those of us in the USA are free to run a diff on cvs ourselves, document
the changes, and publish our findings.  *shrug*