From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@pobox.com>
To: Luben Tuikov <luben_tuikov@adaptec.com>
Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
SCSI Mailing List <linux-scsi@vger.kernel.org>,
Andre Hedrick <andre@linux-ide.org>,
Patrick Mansfield <patmans@us.ibm.com>,
Luben Tuikov <ltuikov@yahoo.com>, Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
Subject: Re: I request inclusion of SAS Transport Layer and AIC-94xx into the kernel
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:48:59 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <433BFEDB.6050505@pobox.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <433BFB1F.2020808@adaptec.com>
Luben Tuikov wrote:
> All the while, Linux _development_, seems to follow some kind
> "yours/mine", "gimme that/take that" kindergarten kind of way.
> The reason I'm saying this is that _every_ successful entity
> (person, corporation, etc) knows that in order to _survive_
> it needs to _quickly adapt to new things_: new technologies,
> new trends, new fads, etc.
The core problem is that a SAM-friendly path to SAS has already been
chosen -- transport classes -- and your driver isn't following this path.
If we choose a new path every six months, we'll never arrive at the
destination.
> Some companies are _fiercly_ trying to beat this _natural_
> course of History, into turning 180 degrees from their mindset
> every single year in order to chase the latest technology, the
> latest fad, in order to please customers and stay on top.
>
> I wish Linux would return to its roots.
Linux today is the most successful its ever been. This system, however
strange it may seem, does work.
>>Hans Reiser once said that every software needs a complete rewrite
>>every 3 or 5 years (I don't precisely remember). I tend to agree
>>with him. Maybe it's time to completely rewrite the SCSI subsystem,
>>but maybe it will be too long, too risky and not worth the effort.
>>Maybe it can simply coexist with another new subsystem. This is what
>
>
> Now _this_ is a smart suggestion: it wouldn't break legacy hardware
> _and_ it would give Linux SCSI a fresh start.
>
> Next year, your new serverboard wouldn't have any of those old
> cumbersome storage chips to worry about. It would have only one
> storage chip which could do SAS and SATA and that'd be that.
> Why would anyone need this fat, old semanticaly overloaded,
> SPI-centric SCSI Core?
The rest of the Linux-SCSI devs are trying to make it less SPI-centric.
Rather than just complain, we're doing something about it.
> Foremost, this experience reminds other vendors that Linux
> _development_ model is _not_ en par with their Linux _deployment_
> model (i.e. for a business).
>
> Many things are left to the whim of developers whose educational
> and technical background could be in question especially when
> your only communication with them is via email.
Background is irrelevant. Only results matter. Linux is a meritocracy.
> I'm not shoving my solution down the throats of LSI or James or
> Christoph. Why?
> - because the technologies are different,
> - beacause I'm following a SAM model, they are not.
> - and because I'm not changing anybody else's code but integrating
> with it.
>
> (Jeff, I know that on the 3rd point, you'd say "That's the problem,
> you should be improving SCSI Core", and I know that if I had been
> changing other people's code, you'd say "You should not change
> other people's code", so it's a win-win-manipulative situation
> for you. I'm aware of that, spare your keystrokes.)
Spare me your paranoia. I've been 100% honest with you in every email
I've written.
You -should- change other people's code. That's how Linux gets better.
When I chose a better path for libata's error handling, the first step
in that process was changing the locking, and modifying almost every
$!#$@! SCSI driver in the kernel. Rather than forever complaining about
an outdated SCSI layer, I stepped up and fixed things.
>>seems to matter much those days. In an ideal situation, 2.7 would
>>have been opened for a long time,
>
>
> Maybe things are slowing down for Linux? Attitude? Complacency?
> History? Who knows?
SCSI work is speeding up. The SCSI core has come a -long- way in the
past couple years. 2.6.x SCSI is light years ahead of 2.4.x SCSI.
Jeff
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2005-09-29 14:49 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 169+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2005-09-26 19:38 I request inclusion of SAS Transport Layer and AIC-94xx into the kernel Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 21:55 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-27 22:51 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 23:14 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-28 11:37 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 12:32 ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-09-28 14:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-30 1:56 ` Junio C Hamano
2005-09-28 16:27 ` Patrick Mansfield
2005-09-28 16:34 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 19:45 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-28 20:56 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 22:35 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-09-28 23:22 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-28 23:29 ` David S. Miller
2005-09-29 5:30 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-29 7:24 ` David S. Miller
2005-09-30 7:36 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-30 18:34 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 18:50 ` Kyle Moffett
2005-09-30 19:08 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 21:31 ` Kyle Moffett
2005-09-30 22:10 ` Greg Freemyer
2005-09-30 22:19 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 23:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-01 4:58 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-10-03 15:08 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 14:04 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 22:14 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-01 0:33 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 14:18 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 14:26 ` I request inclusion of SAS Transport Layer and AIC-94xx intothe kernel David Lang
2005-10-03 15:19 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 15:30 ` I request inclusion of SAS Transport Layer and AIC-94xx intothekernel David Lang
2005-10-03 16:01 ` I request inclusion of SAS Transport Layer and AIC-94xx into the kernel Jeff Garzik
2005-09-30 20:45 ` James Bottomley
2005-09-30 22:05 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-01 0:38 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 15:27 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 16:28 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-30 22:04 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-30 22:32 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 23:57 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 14:15 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 15:57 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 16:23 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 16:48 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 19:03 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 19:32 ` Mike Christie
2005-10-03 20:15 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-03 19:10 ` Mike Christie
2005-09-30 18:51 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 14:33 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 14:48 ` Jeff Garzik [this message]
2005-09-29 15:50 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 16:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 18:25 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 15:15 ` grundig
2005-09-29 15:17 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-09-29 16:33 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 16:56 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 16:58 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 17:03 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 18:09 ` Gerrit Huizenga
2005-09-29 17:13 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2005-09-29 18:39 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 22:43 ` Joel Becker
2005-09-29 17:52 ` John Stoffel
2005-09-29 19:20 ` Bruce Ferrell
2005-09-28 22:43 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-29 15:04 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 15:08 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 16:22 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 19:09 ` Stefan Richter
2005-09-29 22:06 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 16:30 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2005-09-28 16:35 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 2:02 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-28 20:36 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 21:00 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-28 22:10 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 23:04 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 4:04 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-09-29 7:44 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-09-29 15:09 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 15:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 16:56 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 17:11 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-30 18:16 ` Joe Bob Spamtest
2005-09-29 17:15 ` Stefan Richter
2005-09-29 17:29 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-29 19:32 ` Willy Tarreau
2005-09-29 19:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-29 22:49 ` jerome lacoste
2005-09-29 23:20 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 23:57 ` Prasenjit Sarkar
2005-09-30 6:35 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-30 0:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-09-30 1:25 ` Hua Zhong
2005-09-30 2:42 ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-09-30 19:12 ` Joe Bob Spamtest
2005-09-30 19:38 ` Bob Copeland
2005-09-30 7:29 ` Douglas Gilbert
2005-09-30 14:23 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 16:26 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-09-30 16:47 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 14:07 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 5:31 ` Theodore Ts'o
2005-09-30 6:52 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-29 19:59 ` Stefan Richter
2005-09-29 19:37 ` Stefan Richter
2005-09-29 19:22 ` Stefan Richter
2005-09-27 13:07 Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 13:19 ` Christoph Hellwig
2005-09-27 15:01 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 15:53 ` James Bottomley
2005-09-27 19:35 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 20:34 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-27 21:44 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 22:01 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-27 23:03 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-27 23:32 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-09-28 2:07 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-09-28 0:28 Moore, Eric Dean
2005-09-28 1:34 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-09-28 11:42 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 15:15 Moore, Eric Dean
2005-09-28 16:59 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-28 22:17 Moore, Eric Dean
2005-09-29 12:46 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-29 15:45 Moore, Eric Dean
2005-09-30 1:28 Martin Fouts
2005-09-30 17:07 Salyzyn, Mark
2005-09-30 17:53 ` Arjan van de Ven
2005-10-01 23:55 ` Alan Cox
2005-10-03 16:17 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-04 6:51 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-10-04 15:01 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 18:39 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-09-30 19:21 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 20:14 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-09-30 20:22 ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-09-30 21:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-10-01 17:46 ` Greg KH
2005-09-30 20:32 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 21:15 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-09-30 21:40 ` Joel Becker
2005-09-30 22:01 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-09-30 23:42 ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-10-03 13:54 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 16:29 ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-10-03 16:35 ` Andrew Patterson
2005-10-03 16:39 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-03 19:16 ` Marcin Dalecki
2005-10-03 21:26 ` Tomasz Kłoczko
2005-10-03 22:04 ` Ryan Anderson
2005-10-03 22:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-10-03 23:22 ` Al Viro
2005-10-04 13:55 ` Tomasz Kłoczko
2005-10-04 15:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2005-10-04 14:38 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-04 14:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-04 15:19 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-04 15:26 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-04 15:40 ` Luben Tuikov
2005-10-04 15:46 ` Matthew Wilcox
2005-10-04 6:30 ` Andre Hedrick
2005-10-01 0:02 ` Jeff Garzik
2005-10-01 0:01 ` Jeff Garzik
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