From: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" <mtk.manpages@gmail.com>
To: Darren Hart <dvhart@linux.intel.com>,
Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>
Cc: mtk.manpages@gmail.com, "Carlos O'Donell" <carlos@redhat.com>,
Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>, Jakub Jelinek <jakub@redhat.com>,
"linux-man@vger.kernel.org" <linux-man@vger.kernel.org>,
lkml <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
Davidlohr Bueso <dave@stgolabs.net>,
Jan Kiszka <jan.kiszka@siemens.com>
Subject: Re: futex(2) man page update help request
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2015 11:18:23 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <54BB886F.2080908@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <D0DFF430.B7F94%dvhart@linux.intel.com>
Hello Darren,
On 01/17/2015 08:26 PM, Darren Hart wrote:
>
> On 1/17/15, 1:16 AM, "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)"
> <mtk.manpages@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>>>> In the meantime, I have a couple of questions, which, if
>>>> you could answer them, I would work some changes into the
>>>> page before sending.
>>>>
>>>> 1. In various places, distinction is made between non-PI
>>>> futexs and PI futexes. But what determines that distinction?
>>>> From the kernel's perspective, hat make a futex one type
>>>> or another? I presume it is to do with the types of blocking
>>>> waiters on the futex, but it would be good to have a formal
>>>> definition.
>>>
>>> You're right in that a uaddr is a uaddr is a uaddr. Also "there is no
>>> such
>>> thing as a futex", it doesn't exist as any kind of identifiable object,
>>> so
>>> these discussions can get rather confusing :-)
>>
>> So, I want to make sure that I am clear on what you mean you say this.
>> You say "there is no such thing as a futex" because from the kernel's
>> perspective there is no visible entity in the uncontended case
>> (where everything can be dealt with in user space). And from user-space,
>> in the uncontended case all we're doing is memory operations. Right?
>>
>> On the other hand, from a kernel perspective, we could say that a
>> futex "exists" in the contended phases, since the kernel has allocated
>> state associated with the uaddr. Right?
>
>
> Sorry, this was more anecdotal, and probably more of a distraction than
> constructive. I just meant that unlike other things which you can point to
> a specific struct for (task, rt_mutex, etc.), a "futex" has it's state
> distributed across the backing store (uaddr), the queue (futex_q), the
> pi_state, the rt_mutex, etc, and these span kernel space and userspace.
> Your description above is correct.
Okay. Thanks. I've added a few more words to the page noting that
the kernel maintains no state for a futex in the uncontended state.
>>> A "futex" becomes a PI futex when it is "created" via a PI futex op
>>> code.
>>
>> Precisely which PI op codes? Is it: FUTEX_LOCK_PI, FUTEX_TRYLOCK_PI, and
>> FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE_PI, and not FUTEX_WAIT_REQUEUE_PI or FUTEX_UNLOCK_PI?
>
> Based on your wording below about taking a user POV on this, I'm going to
> say "yes" here. These opcodes paired with the PI futex value policy
> (described below) defines a "futex" as PI aware. These were created very
> specifically in support of PI pthread_mutexes, so it makes a lot more
> sense to talk about a PI aware pthread_mutex, than a PI aware futex, since
> there is a lot of policy and scaffolding that has to be built up around it
> to use it properly (this is what a PI pthread_mutex is).
See below.
>>> At that point, the syscall will ensure a pi_state is populated for the
>>> futex_q entry. See futex_lock_pi() for example. Before the locks are
>>> taken, there is a call to refill_pi_state_cache() which preps a pi_state
>>> for assignment later in futex_lock_pi_atomic(). This pi_state provides
>>> the
>>> necessary linkage to perform the priority boosting in the event of a
>>> priority inversion. This is handled externally from the futexes via the
>>> rt_mutex construct.
>>>
>>> Clear as mud?
>>
>> Not quite that bad, but... The thing is, still, the man page has text
>> such as the following (based on your wording):
>>
>> FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE_PI (since Linux 2.6.31)
>> This operation is a PI-aware variant of FUTEX_CMP_REQUEUE.
>> It requeues waiters that are blocked via
>> FUTEX_WAIT_REQUEUE_PI on uaddr from a non-PI source futex
>> (uaddr) to a PI target futex (uaddr2).
>>
>> And elsewhere you said
>>
>> EINVAL is returned if the non-pi to pi or
>> op pairing semantics are violated.
>>
>> When someone in user-land (e.g., me) reads pieces like that, they then
>> want to find somewhere in the man page a description of what makes a
>> futex a *PI futex* and probably some statements of the distinction
>> between PI and non-PI futexes. And those statements should be from a
>> perspective that is somewhat comprehensible to user-space. I'm not
>> yet confident that I can do that. Do you care to take a shot at it?
>
> Hrm, tricky indeed. From userspace, what makes a "futex" PI is the policy
> agreement between kernel and userspace (which is the value of the futex:
> 0, TID, TID|WAITERS, and never just WAITERS, and the use of PI aware futex
> op codes when making the futex syscalls.
Okay -- I've attempted to capture this in some text that I added to the
page.
> For a longer discussion of this policy, see Documentation/pi-futex.txt.
Sad to say, that document doesn't supply that much more detail, in
my reading of it, at least.
> Also note that this policy can be combined with that for robust futexes,
> adding the OWNERDIED component.
Now there's two other stories that have yet to be dealt with ;-).
I have a FIXME already in the page regarding OWNERDIED, and
get_robust_list(2) is another page that seems like it could do with
a fair bit of work, but that's a story for another day.
Cheers,
Michael
--
Michael Kerrisk
Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/
Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-01-18 10:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 80+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-05-14 10:35 futex(2) man page update help request Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-14 16:18 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-14 19:03 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-14 19:59 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-14 20:23 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-14 20:44 ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-05-14 23:34 ` Thomas Gleixner
2014-05-15 3:12 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-15 4:49 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-15 4:53 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-15 14:14 ` Thomas Gleixner
2014-05-15 20:19 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-08-04 14:46 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-15 20:35 ` Darren Hart
2015-01-15 15:12 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-17 1:33 ` Darren Hart
2015-01-17 9:16 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-17 19:26 ` Darren Hart
2015-01-18 10:18 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) [this message]
2015-01-15 15:10 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-15 22:23 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-16 15:17 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-16 15:20 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-16 20:54 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-17 0:46 ` Darren Hart
2015-01-19 10:45 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-19 14:07 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-01-23 18:19 ` Torvald Riegel
2015-01-24 10:05 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-24 12:58 ` Torvald Riegel
2015-01-24 16:25 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-17 0:56 ` Davidlohr Bueso
2015-01-17 1:11 ` Darren Hart
2015-01-23 18:29 ` Torvald Riegel
2015-01-24 11:35 ` Thomas Gleixner
2015-01-24 13:12 ` Torvald Riegel
2015-01-27 7:48 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2015-02-05 19:57 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 8:13 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-15 15:43 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 8:14 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-15 13:18 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-15 13:22 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-15 13:49 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-15 13:55 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-15 14:39 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-15 15:11 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-14 20:56 ` Davidlohr Bueso
2014-05-14 21:03 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-14 22:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-05-15 0:28 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 0:35 ` Andy Lutomirski
2014-05-15 0:41 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 19:10 ` Carlos O'Donell
2014-05-14 21:05 ` Davidlohr Bueso
2014-05-15 15:15 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-05-15 0:18 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 5:21 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 8:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-05-15 13:46 ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2014-05-15 14:59 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 15:42 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 15:52 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 16:01 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 16:07 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 16:17 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 16:56 ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-15 17:06 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 15:47 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 15:35 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 15:28 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 15:40 ` Steven Rostedt
2014-05-15 16:14 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 16:30 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 18:17 ` Darren Hart
2014-05-15 19:05 ` chrubis
2014-05-15 19:38 ` Darren Hart
2014-08-11 10:19 ` chrubis
2014-11-26 13:41 ` Cyril Hrubis
2015-02-16 13:14 ` Cyril Hrubis
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