From: Lukasz Luba <lukasz.luba@arm.com>
To: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
Cc: Qais Yousef <qyousef@layalina.io>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-pm@vger.kernel.org,
"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rafael@kernel.org>,
Ingo Molnar <mingo@kernel.org>,
Dietmar Eggemann <dietmar.eggemann@arm.com>,
Vincent Guittot <vincent.guittot@linaro.org>,
Viresh Kumar <viresh.kumar@linaro.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/7] sched: cpufreq: Remove magic margins
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 14:06:15 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <89067f71-9b83-e647-053e-07f7d55b6529@arm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230907115307.GD10955@noisy.programming.kicks-ass.net>
On 9/7/23 12:53, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 07, 2023 at 08:48:08AM +0100, Lukasz Luba wrote:
>
>>> Hehe. That's because they're not really periodic ;-)
>>
>> They are periodic in a sense, they wake up every 16ms, but sometimes
>> they have more work. It depends what is currently going in the game
>> and/or sometimes the data locality (might not be in cache).
>>
>> Although, that's for games, other workloads like youtube play or this
>> one 'Yahoo browser' (from your example) are more 'predictable' (after
>> the start up period). And I really like the potential energy saving
>> there :)
>
> So everything media is fundamentally periodic, you're hard tied to the
> framerate / audio-buffer size etc..
Agree
>
> Also note that the traditional periodic task model from the real-time
> community has the notion of WCET, which completely covers this
> fluctuation in frame-to-frame work, it only considers the absolute worst
> case.
That's good point, the WCET here. IMO shorter PELT e.g. 8ms allows us
to 'see' a bit more that information: the worst case in fluctuation of
a particular task. Then this 'seen' value is maintained in util_est
for a while. That's why (probably) I see a better 95-, 99-percentile
numbers for frames rendering time.
>
> Now, practically, that stinks, esp. when you care about batteries, but
> it does not mean these tasks are not periodic.
Totally agree they are periodic.
>
> Many extentions to the periodic task model are possible, including
> things like average runtime with bursts etc.. all have their trade-offs.
Was that maybe proposed somewhere on LKML (the other models)?
I can recall one idea - WALT.
IIRC ~2016/2017 the WALT proposal and some discussion/conferences, it
didn't get positive feedback [2].
I don't know if you remember those numbers back than, e.g. video 1080p
playback was using ~10% less energy... Those 10%-15% are still important
for us ;)
Regards,
Lukasz
[1]
https://lore.kernel.org/all/1477638642-17428-1-git-send-email-markivx@codeaurora.org/
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-09-07 15:36 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 64+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-27 23:31 [RFC PATCH 0/7] sched: cpufreq: Remove magic margins Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:31 ` [RFC PATCH 1/7] sched/pelt: Add a new function to approximate the future util_avg value Qais Yousef
2023-09-06 12:56 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-06 21:19 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 11:12 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-10 19:58 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-13 17:22 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-16 19:49 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-16 19:52 ` Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:31 ` [RFC PATCH 2/7] sched/pelt: Add a new function to approximate runtime to reach given util Qais Yousef
2023-09-06 12:56 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-06 20:44 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-06 21:38 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-15 9:15 ` Hongyan Xia
2023-09-16 19:56 ` Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:31 ` [RFC PATCH 3/7] sched/fair: Remove magic margin in fits_capacity() Qais Yousef
2023-09-06 14:38 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-06 21:45 ` Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:32 ` [RFC PATCH 4/7] sched: cpufreq: Remove magic 1.25 headroom from apply_dvfs_headroom() Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 11:34 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-10 19:23 ` Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:32 ` [RFC PATCH 5/7] sched/schedutil: Add a new tunable to dictate response time Qais Yousef
2023-09-06 21:13 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-06 21:52 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 11:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-10 19:25 ` Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:32 ` [RFC PATCH 6/7] sched/pelt: Introduce PELT multiplier Qais Yousef
2023-08-27 23:32 ` [RFC PATCH 7/7] cpufreq: Change default transition delay to 2ms Qais Yousef
2023-09-06 9:18 ` [RFC PATCH 0/7] sched: cpufreq: Remove magic margins Lukasz Luba
2023-09-06 21:18 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 7:48 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-07 11:53 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-07 13:06 ` Lukasz Luba [this message]
2023-09-07 13:29 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-07 13:33 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-07 13:38 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-07 13:45 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-08 12:51 ` Daniel Bristot de Oliveira
2023-09-12 11:57 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-10 18:20 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-10 18:14 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 13:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-07 13:57 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-07 14:29 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-07 14:42 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-07 20:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-12 11:51 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-12 14:01 ` Vincent Guittot
2023-09-13 9:53 ` Lukasz Luba
2023-09-12 14:28 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-10 19:06 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-10 18:46 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-07 13:08 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 0:17 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-08 7:40 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-08 14:07 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-12 17:18 ` Dietmar Eggemann
2023-09-16 19:38 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-08 10:25 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 13:33 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-08 13:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 13:59 ` Peter Zijlstra
2023-09-08 14:11 ` Qais Yousef
2023-09-10 21:17 ` Qais Yousef
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