From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
To: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>
Cc: Alexandre Oliva <aoliva@redhat.com>,
Paul Mackerras <paulus@samba.org>, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>,
Matthew Wilcox <matthew@wil.cx>,
David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
hch@infradead.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
libc-hacker@sources.redhat.com
Subject: Re: [RFC] Splitting kernel headers and deprecating __KERNEL__
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:53:34 -0800 (PST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0411300846190.22796@ppc970.osdl.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1101832116.26071.236.camel@hades.cambridge.redhat.com>
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, David Woodhouse wrote:
>
> > Same thing here. The __KERNEL__ approach says "whatever you want, boss".
> > It doesn't get in the way. Maybe it doesn't actively _help_ you either,
> > but you never have to fight any structure it imposes on you.
>
> Having to think before adding something that's user visible is a
> _benefit_ not a disadvantage.
I've said this at least three times: if you can point to a _specific_
thing you want to move, go wild. I think the big waste in this discussion
has been that there have _not_ been specific suggestions, just total
sound-bites like "wouldn't it be great to move things to 'include/kapi'".
If you have a specific thing in mind, say instead something like
"Wouldn't it be great if we moved all the tty layer IOCTL numbers
into 'tty-ioctl-nr.h', and made the old header file just include
that header file, so that new libc users can get them from just
that header? And btw, here's the patch."
then I might listen. Notice how the only really constructive thing to come
out of this flame-fest has been a patch by Al that looked perfectly
reasonable, but that got totally drowned out by the arguing?
Note that even _if_ you have a specific thing in mind, I want to see that
somebody would say "yes, we'd use that organization". I would not be
surprised at all if glibc people said that they can't really use any
re-organization anyway, since they need to support old kernel setups too.
See? Changes that aren't specific enough, or don't actually help things is
what I'm against.
Linus
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2004-11-30 16:57 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 185+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2004-11-25 15:13 [RFC] Splitting kernel headers and deprecating __KERNEL__ David Howells
2004-11-25 15:23 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-25 16:54 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-25 18:17 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 3:24 ` Greg KH
2004-11-28 23:37 ` Paul Mackerras
2004-11-29 1:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-29 4:36 ` Jeff Garzik
2004-11-29 4:57 ` Al Viro
2004-11-29 5:27 ` Tim Hockin
2004-11-29 7:51 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-12-05 0:49 ` Rob Landley
2004-12-05 2:26 ` Andries Brouwer
2004-12-05 13:19 ` David Greaves
2004-12-05 15:57 ` Andries Brouwer
2004-12-05 23:05 ` Rob Landley
2004-12-06 9:56 ` Andries Brouwer
2004-11-29 9:42 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 8:08 ` Alex Riesen
2004-11-30 8:57 ` Alex Riesen
2004-12-01 11:46 ` Ralf Baechle
2004-12-02 1:21 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-11-29 9:53 ` Paul Mackerras
2004-11-29 9:57 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-11-29 10:01 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-29 11:41 ` Mariusz Mazur
2004-11-29 17:09 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-29 17:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-29 22:44 ` Al Viro
2004-12-01 11:36 ` Roman Zippel
[not found] ` <oract0thnj.fsf@livre.redhat.lsd.ic.unicamp.br>
2004-11-29 23:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 0:45 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-11-30 5:31 ` Herbert Poetzl
2004-11-30 6:44 ` bert hubert
2004-11-30 21:22 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 22:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 22:57 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 23:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 19:41 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-12-01 19:54 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-12-02 3:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-02 4:28 ` Bernd Eckenfels
2004-12-02 5:11 ` Peter Williams
2004-12-02 11:30 ` Tomas Carnecky
2004-12-02 22:17 ` Peter Williams
2004-12-02 9:29 ` Pekka Enberg
2004-12-02 15:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-02 21:46 ` Pekka Enberg
2004-11-30 15:35 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 15:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 16:28 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 16:53 ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2004-11-30 17:52 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 18:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 20:28 ` Mariusz Mazur
2004-11-30 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 22:33 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-11-30 22:44 ` Mariusz Mazur
2004-11-30 23:03 ` Al Viro
2004-11-30 23:08 ` Mariusz Mazur
2004-12-01 5:23 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-12-01 10:52 ` Mariusz Mazur
2004-12-01 18:08 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-11-30 23:13 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 23:36 ` Chris Friesen
2004-12-01 5:50 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-11-30 22:48 ` Matt Mackall
2004-11-30 22:51 ` Christoph Hellwig
2004-11-30 23:09 ` Chris Friesen
2004-11-30 23:35 ` Matt Mackall
2004-12-01 0:23 ` Miquel van Smoorenburg
2004-11-30 22:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 23:29 ` Matt Mackall
2004-12-03 1:03 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2004-11-30 23:51 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 17:55 ` Al Viro
2004-11-30 16:33 ` David Howells
2004-11-30 16:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 15:33 ` David Howells
2004-11-30 15:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 20:47 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 20:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 21:30 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 21:39 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 23:33 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-30 22:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 22:34 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-30 22:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 23:50 ` David Woodhouse
2004-12-01 0:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 8:10 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-12-01 0:24 ` David Woodhouse
2004-12-01 0:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 0:47 ` David Woodhouse
2004-12-01 0:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 1:06 ` David Woodhouse
2004-12-01 1:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-01 6:48 ` BAIN
2004-12-01 2:02 ` cdrom.h (was Re: [RFC] Splitting kernel headers...) Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-30 22:52 ` [RFC] Splitting kernel headers and deprecating __KERNEL__ Mariusz Mazur
2004-11-30 23:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 23:05 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-30 16:18 ` David Howells
2004-12-14 5:51 ` Werner Almesberger
2004-12-14 15:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-14 16:50 ` Werner Almesberger
2004-12-14 17:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-14 21:46 ` Werner Almesberger
2004-12-14 21:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-14 23:49 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2004-12-15 0:09 ` Werner Almesberger
2004-12-16 0:58 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2004-12-14 19:23 ` Horst von Brand
2004-12-14 19:45 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-12-14 19:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-14 20:25 ` Andreas Schwab
2004-12-14 20:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-12-14 16:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2004-12-14 17:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-27 20:39 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-11-25 18:20 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-25 21:01 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-25 22:35 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-26 11:42 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-27 0:13 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-11-27 0:26 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 0:30 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-11-27 0:38 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-26 11:47 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-26 11:53 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 16:12 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2004-11-26 11:58 ` David Howells
2004-11-26 12:00 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-26 14:19 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-26 14:33 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 12:10 ` Alexander Stohr
2004-11-27 3:46 ` Adam Heath
2004-11-30 12:18 ` Horst von Brand
2004-11-29 16:34 ` Alexandre Oliva
2004-11-25 18:45 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-26 11:52 ` David Howells
2004-11-26 23:56 ` Grzegorz Kulewski
2004-11-27 1:27 ` Tomas Carnecky
2004-11-27 1:41 ` Grzegorz Kulewski
2004-11-27 2:03 ` Tomas Carnecky
2004-11-27 3:07 ` Kyle Moffett
2004-11-27 4:29 ` Tonnerre
2004-11-27 3:51 ` Matthew Wilcox
2004-11-27 16:47 ` Randy.Dunlap
2004-11-27 17:16 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 22:53 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-27 23:12 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 23:27 ` Randy.Dunlap
2004-11-27 23:32 ` David Woodhouse
2004-11-27 23:56 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-28 7:13 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-11-28 12:03 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-28 12:19 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-11-28 16:34 ` Kevin Puetz
2004-11-28 12:28 ` Wichert Akkerman
2004-11-28 12:44 ` Arjan van de Ven
2004-11-28 16:21 ` Jakub Jelinek
2004-11-28 7:20 ` Christoph Hellwig
2004-11-27 4:05 ` Chris Friesen
2004-11-27 4:30 ` Tomas Carnecky
2004-11-27 21:03 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-11-27 21:11 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-11-27 21:19 ` Sam Ravnborg
2004-11-27 21:49 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-11-27 23:21 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-28 13:24 ` Andreas Steinmetz
2004-11-28 13:40 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-29 11:08 ` David Howells
2004-11-29 20:01 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-11-30 0:34 ` Kyle Moffett
2004-11-30 0:51 ` H. Peter Anvin
2004-12-14 7:07 ` Werner Almesberger
2004-11-27 19:43 Dan Kegel
2004-11-27 21:06 ` Sam Ravnborg
[not found] <34Xo6-2P0-19@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <35i9f-2vZ-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <35iLS-2Uo-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
[not found] ` <35kb6-46Q-25@gated-at.bofh.it>
2004-11-28 0:55 ` ak
2004-11-28 13:32 ` Arnd Bergmann
2004-11-30 1:43 Jean Tourrilhes
2004-11-30 4:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2004-11-30 6:51 ` H. Peter Anvin
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