linux-kernel.vger.kernel.org archive mirror
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>
To: Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@google.com>
Cc: ojeda@kernel.org, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
	rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:09:01 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YHk4DZE1ZWTiBB1f@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <YHj02M3jMSweoP4l@google.com>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 03:22:16AM +0100, Wedson Almeida Filho wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 08:58:16PM +0200, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 08:45:51PM +0200, ojeda@kernel.org wrote:
> > 
> > > Rust is a systems programming language that brings several key
> > > advantages over C in the context of the Linux kernel:
> > > 
> > >   - No undefined behavior in the safe subset (when unsafe code is
> > >     sound), including memory safety and the absence of data races.
> > 
> > And yet I see not a single mention of the Rust Memory Model and how it
> > aligns (or not) with the LKMM. The C11 memory model for example is a
> > really poor fit for LKMM.
> 
> We don't intend to directly expose C data structures to Rust code (outside the
> kernel crate). Instead, we intend to provide wrappers that expose safe
> interfaces even though the implementation may use unsafe blocks. So we expect
> the vast majority of Rust code to just care about the Rust memory model.
> 
> We admittedly don't have a huge number of wrappers yet, but we do have enough to
> implement most of Binder and so far it's been ok. We do intend to eventually
> cover other classes of drivers that may unveil unforeseen difficulties, we'll
> see.
> 
> If you have concerns that we might have overlooked, we'd be happy to hear about
> them from you (or anyone else).

Well, the obvious example would be seqlocks. C11 can't do them. The not
sharing of data structures would avoid most of that, but will also cost
you in performance.

Simlar thing for RCU; C11 can't optimally do that; it needs to make
rcu_dereference() a load-acquire [something ARM64 has already done in C
because the compiler might be too clever by half when doing LTO :-(].
But it's the compiler needing the acquire semantics, not the computer,
which is just bloody wrong.

And there's more sharp corners to be had. But yes, if you're not
actually sharing anything; and taking the performance hit that comes
with that, you might get away with it.

> > HTML is not a valid documentation format. Heck, markdown itself is
> > barely readable.
> 
> Are you stating [what you perceive as] a fact or just venting? If the former,
> would you mind enlightening us with some evidence?

I've yet to see a program that renders HTML (including all the cruft
often used in docs, which might include SVG graphics and whatnot) sanely
in ASCII. Lynx does not qualify, it's output is atrocious crap.

Yes, lynx lets you read HTML in ASCII, but at the cost of bleeding
eyeballs and missing content.

Nothing beats a sane ASCII document with possibly, where really needed
some ASCII art.

Sadly the whole kernel documentation project is moving away from that as
well, which just means I'm back to working on an undocumented codebase.
This rst crap they adopted is unreadable garbage.

> > It is really *really* hard to read. It has all sorts of weird things,
> > like operators at the beginning after a line break:
> > 
> > 	if (foo
> > 	    || bar)
> > 
> > which is just wrong. And it suffers from CamelCase, which is just about
> > the worst thing ever. Not even the C++ std libs have that (or had, back
> > when I still did knew C++).
> > 
> > I also see:
> > 
> > 	if (foo) {
> > 		...
> > 	}
> > 
> > and
> > 
> > 	if foo {
> > 	}
> > 
> > the latter, ofcourse, being complete rubbish.
> 
> There are advantages to adopting the preferred style of a language (when one
> exists). We, of course, are not required to adopt it but I am of the opinion
> that we should have good reasons to diverge if that's our choice in the end.
> 
> "Not having parentheses around the if-clause expression is complete rubbish"
> doesn't sound like a good reason to me.

Of course it does; my internal lexer keeps screaming syntax error at me;
how am I going to understand code when I can't sanely read it?

The more you make it look like (Kernel) C, the easier it is for us C
people to actually read. My eyes have been reading C for almost 30 years
by now, they have a lexer built in the optical nerve; reading something
that looks vaguely like C but is definitely not C is an utterly painful
experience.

You're asking to join us, not the other way around. I'm fine in a world
without Rust.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-04-16  7:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 201+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-04-14 18:45 ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 01/13] kallsyms: Support "big" kernel symbols (2-byte lengths) ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44   ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 19:59     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 02/13] kallsyms: Increase maximum kernel symbol length to 512 ojeda
2021-04-14 23:48   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 03/13] Makefile: Generate CLANG_FLAGS even in GCC builds ojeda
2021-04-14 18:59   ` Nathan Chancellor
2021-04-15 10:18     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 23:46   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15  0:47     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 04/13] Kbuild: Rust support ojeda
2021-04-14 23:19   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15  0:43     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:03       ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-16 12:23         ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 19:35       ` Masahiro Yamada
2021-04-16 13:38   ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 17:05     ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-16 17:47       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 18:09         ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 18:57           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:22             ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 20:34               ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-16 20:58                 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 21:39                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 22:04                     ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 22:45                       ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 23:46                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17  4:24                         ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:38                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 21:19               ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:34     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 19:58       ` David Sterba
2021-04-19 20:17         ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-19 21:03           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 20:54         ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 05/13] Rust: Compiler builtins crate ojeda
2021-04-14 19:19   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:34     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 06/13] Rust: Module crate ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 07/13] Rust: Kernel crate ojeda
2021-04-14 19:31   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:50     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 08/13] Rust: Export generated symbols ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 09/13] Samples: Rust examples ojeda
2021-04-14 19:34   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:42     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 19:49       ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-16 11:46       ` Andrej Shadura
2021-04-14 23:24     ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15  7:10       ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-15  7:39         ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 12:42         ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 13:07         ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-16 13:20           ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 10/13] Documentation: Rust general information ojeda
2021-04-14 22:17   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 23:34     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 11/13] MAINTAINERS: Rust ojeda
2021-04-14 21:55   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 22:02     ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 22:36   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 12/13] Rust: add abstractions for Binder (WIP) ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 13/13] Android: Binder IPC in Rust (WIP) ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44 ` [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:20   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15  1:38     ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15  8:26       ` David Laight
2021-04-15 18:08         ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15 12:39       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 20:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 20:21   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:35     ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-14 22:08     ` David Laight
2021-04-14 20:29   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:31   ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-15  0:22 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 10:05   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16  2:22   ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16  4:25     ` Al Viro
2021-04-16  5:02       ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16  5:39         ` Paul Zimmerman
2021-04-16  7:46         ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16  7:09     ` Peter Zijlstra [this message]
2021-04-17  5:23       ` comex
2021-04-17 12:46       ` David Laight
2021-04-17 14:51       ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19  7:32         ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19  7:53           ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19  8:26             ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19  8:35               ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19  9:02               ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19  9:36                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19  9:40                   ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 11:01                     ` Will Deacon
2021-04-19 17:14                   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-19 18:38                     ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 18:50                       ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-22 10:03     ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-22 14:09       ` David Laight
2021-04-22 15:24       ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26  0:18         ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 14:26           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26 14:40           ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 16:03             ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 10:54             ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-27 11:13               ` Robin Randhawa
2021-04-29  1:52               ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 18:01           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-22 21:28       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26  0:31         ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 18:18           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 11:13             ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-28  2:51               ` Kyle Strand
2021-04-28  3:10               ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-04 21:21                 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-04 23:30                   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 11:34                     ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-05 14:17                       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 15:13                         ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-06 12:47                         ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-07 18:23                           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16  4:27   ` Boqun Feng
2021-04-16  6:04     ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-16 18:47       ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 20:35         ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-19 21:37           ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 22:03           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:48     ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-16  8:16   ` Michal Kubecek
2021-04-16  9:29     ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 11:24 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 13:07   ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 14:19     ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 15:04       ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:43         ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 16:21           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:33       ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 16:14         ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:10           ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:18             ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 18:08               ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 11:17                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 11:46                   ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 14:24                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 14:36                       ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 13:46                   ` David Laight
2021-04-16 17:37             ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:46               ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-20  0:24               ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-20  3:47                 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-20  5:56                 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-20  6:16                   ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:38                     ` peter enderborg
2021-04-17 13:53           ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 14:21             ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:23               ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:51               ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 12:41       ` David Laight
2021-04-17 13:01         ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:03     ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 13:29       ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:58     ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-04-16 16:21       ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 15:11       ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-16 14:21   ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 20:42 ` Richard Weinberger
2021-04-28 18:34 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-28 20:25   ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-28 21:21   ` David Laight
2021-04-29 11:14     ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 11:25   ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 14:06     ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 14:13       ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-29 14:26         ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:06       ` Al Viro
2021-04-29 16:09         ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-30  6:39     ` Thomas Schoebel-Theuer
2021-04-30  8:30       ` David Laight
2021-05-05 13:58       ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-05 14:41         ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-06-20 15:11 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-06-27 17:44   ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-18  6:56     ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-20 19:23       ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-20 20:21         ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27  7:47           ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-27 13:32             ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27  8:05         ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-28 10:21           ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 12:09             ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 12:28               ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 20:45               ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-29  8:04                 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 20:43             ` Olliver Schinagl
2021-04-29  5:20 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29  5:21 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29  8:18 ` David Laight
2021-07-30 23:22 Dillan Jackson

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=YHk4DZE1ZWTiBB1f@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net \
    --to=peterz@infradead.org \
    --cc=gregkh@linuxfoundation.org \
    --cc=linux-doc@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=ojeda@kernel.org \
    --cc=rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
    --cc=wedsonaf@google.com \
    --subject='Re: [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support' \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).