From: peter enderborg <peter.enderborg@sony.com>
To: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@google.com>,
Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@google.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@kernel.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
rust-for-linux <rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org>,
Linux Kbuild mailing list <linux-kbuild@vger.kernel.org>,
Linux Doc Mailing List <linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-kernel <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Dmitry Vyukov <dvyukov@google.com>,
Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:38:14 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <e3c591db-a272-5048-7396-3e934b071aab@sony.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210420061613.GA30890@1wt.eu>
On 4/20/21 8:16 AM, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 07:56:18AM +0200, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
>> I would LOVE it if some "executives" would see the above presentations,
>> because then they would maybe actually fund developers to fix bugs and
>> maintain the kernel code, instead of only allowing them to add new
>> features.
>>
>> Seriously, that's the real problem, that Dmitry's work has exposed, the
>> lack of people allowed to do this type of bugfixing and maintenance on
>> company time, for something that the company relies on, is a huge issue.
>> "executives" feel that they are willing to fund the initial work and
>> then "throw it over the wall to the community" once it is merged, and
>> then they can forget about it as "the community" will maintain it for
>> them for free. And that's a lie, as Dmitry's work shows.
> That's sadly the eternal situation, and I'm suspecting that software
> development and maintenance is not identified as a requirement for a
> large number of hardware vendors, especially on the consumer side where
> margins are lower. A contractor is paid to develop a driver, *sometimes*
> to try to mainline it (and the later they engage with the community, the
> longer it takes in round trips), and once the code finally gets merged,
> all the initial budget is depleted and no more software work will be
> done.
>
> Worse, we could imagine kicking unmaintained drivers faster off the
> tree, but that would actually help these unscrupulous vendors by
> forcing their customers to switch to the new model :-/ And most of
> them wouldn't care either if their contributions were refused based
> on their track record of not maintaining their code, since they often
> see this as a convenience to please their customers and not something
> they need (after all, relying on a bogus and vulnerable BSP has never
> prevented from selling a device, quite the opposite).
>
> In short, there is a parallel universe where running highly bogus and
> vulnerable out-of-tree code seems like the norm and where there is no
> sort of care for what is mainlined as it's possibly just made to look
> "cool".
In the parallel universe where I spent most time everyone
now need to learn how to make their things to work
out-of-tree. And there is not much of business case trying
to fix and improve core parts of linux. The turn around have
increased a lot and there is no edge doing it.
> We also need to recognize that it's expectable that some vendors are
> not willing to engage on supporting a driver for a decade if they
> expect their device to last 5 years only, and maybe we should make
> some rules clear about mainlining drivers and what to expect for
> users (in which case the end of support would be clear and nobody
> would be surprised if the driver is removed at the end of its
> maintenance, barring a switch to a community maintainer).
Things have changed. Once upon a time the community was
happy if it could get hardware specs.
> Just my two cents,
> Willy
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-29 15:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 205+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-14 18:45 [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 01/13] kallsyms: Support "big" kernel symbols (2-byte lengths) ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 19:59 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 02/13] kallsyms: Increase maximum kernel symbol length to 512 ojeda
2021-04-14 23:48 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 03/13] Makefile: Generate CLANG_FLAGS even in GCC builds ojeda
2021-04-14 18:59 ` Nathan Chancellor
2021-04-15 10:18 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 23:46 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 0:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 04/13] Kbuild: Rust support ojeda
2021-04-14 23:19 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 0:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:03 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-16 12:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 19:35 ` Masahiro Yamada
2021-04-16 13:38 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 17:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-16 17:47 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 18:09 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 18:57 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:22 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 20:34 ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-16 20:58 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 21:39 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 22:04 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 22:45 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 23:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 4:24 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:38 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 21:19 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 19:58 ` David Sterba
2021-04-19 20:17 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-19 21:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-19 20:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 05/13] Rust: Compiler builtins crate ojeda
2021-04-14 19:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 06/13] Rust: Module crate ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 07/13] Rust: Kernel crate ojeda
2021-04-14 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:45 ` [PATCH 08/13] Rust: Export generated symbols ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 09/13] Samples: Rust examples ojeda
2021-04-14 19:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 19:42 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 19:49 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-16 11:46 ` Andrej Shadura
2021-04-14 23:24 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 7:10 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-15 7:39 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 12:42 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 13:07 ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-16 13:20 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 10/13] Documentation: Rust general information ojeda
2021-04-14 22:17 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 23:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 11/13] MAINTAINERS: Rust ojeda
2021-04-14 21:55 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 22:02 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 22:36 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 12/13] Rust: add abstractions for Binder (WIP) ojeda
2021-04-14 18:46 ` [PATCH 13/13] Android: Binder IPC in Rust (WIP) ojeda
2021-04-14 19:44 ` [PATCH 00/13] [RFC] Rust support Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:20 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 1:38 ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15 8:26 ` David Laight
2021-04-15 18:08 ` Kees Cook
2021-04-15 12:39 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-14 20:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-14 20:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-14 20:35 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-14 22:08 ` David Laight
2021-04-14 20:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:31 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-15 0:22 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-15 10:05 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-15 18:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 2:22 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 4:25 ` Al Viro
2021-04-16 5:02 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 5:39 ` Paul Zimmerman
2021-04-16 7:46 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 7:09 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 5:23 ` comex
2021-04-17 12:46 ` David Laight
2021-04-17 14:51 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 7:32 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 7:53 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 8:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 8:35 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 9:02 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 9:36 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-19 9:40 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 11:01 ` Will Deacon
2021-04-19 17:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-19 18:38 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-19 18:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-04-22 10:03 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-22 14:09 ` David Laight
2021-04-22 15:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 0:18 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 14:26 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26 14:40 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 16:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 10:54 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-27 11:13 ` Robin Randhawa
2021-04-29 1:52 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-26 18:01 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-22 21:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-26 0:31 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-26 18:18 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-27 11:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-04-28 2:51 ` Kyle Strand
2021-04-28 3:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-04 21:21 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-04 23:30 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 11:34 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-05 14:17 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-05-05 15:13 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-06 12:47 ` Linus Walleij
2021-05-07 18:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 4:27 ` Boqun Feng
2021-04-16 6:04 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-16 18:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 20:35 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-19 21:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2021-04-19 22:03 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 20:48 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-16 8:16 ` Michal Kubecek
2021-04-16 9:29 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 11:24 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 13:07 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 14:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 15:04 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 16:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 15:33 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 16:14 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-16 17:18 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-16 18:08 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 11:17 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 11:46 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 14:24 ` Peter Zijlstra
2021-04-17 14:36 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 13:46 ` David Laight
2021-04-16 17:37 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-16 17:46 ` Connor Kuehl
2021-04-20 0:24 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-20 3:47 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-20 5:56 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-04-20 6:16 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:38 ` peter enderborg [this message]
2021-04-17 13:53 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 14:21 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-17 15:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-18 15:51 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 12:41 ` David Laight
2021-04-17 13:01 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:03 ` Matthew Wilcox
2021-04-17 13:29 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-16 15:58 ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-04-16 16:21 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-04-17 15:11 ` Paolo Bonzini
2021-04-16 14:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-04-17 20:42 ` Richard Weinberger
2021-04-28 18:34 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-28 20:25 ` Nick Desaulniers
2021-04-28 21:21 ` David Laight
2021-04-29 11:14 ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 11:25 ` Kajetan Puchalski
2021-04-29 14:06 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 14:13 ` Sven Van Asbroeck
2021-04-29 14:26 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-04-29 15:06 ` Al Viro
2021-04-29 16:09 ` Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-30 6:39 ` Thomas Schoebel-Theuer
2021-04-30 8:30 ` David Laight
2021-05-05 13:58 ` Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult
2021-05-05 14:41 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-06-20 15:11 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-06-27 17:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-18 6:56 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-20 19:23 ` Miguel Ojeda
2022-07-20 20:21 ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27 7:47 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-27 13:32 ` Nicolas Pitre
2022-07-27 8:05 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-28 10:21 ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 12:09 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 12:28 ` Gary Guo
2022-07-28 20:45 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-07-29 8:04 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2022-07-28 20:43 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-10-15 14:16 ` Olliver Schinagl
2022-10-16 1:44 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2022-10-16 1:50 ` Bagas Sanjaya
2022-10-16 13:23 ` Josh Triplett
2021-04-29 5:20 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 5:21 Mariusz Ceier
2021-04-29 8:18 ` David Laight
2021-07-30 23:22 Dillan Jackson
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