From: Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko.sakkinen@linux.intel.com>
To: Jason Gunthorpe <jgunthorpe@obsidianresearch.com>
Cc: James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@HansenPartnership.com>,
linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org,
tpmdd-devel@lists.sourceforge.net,
open list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [tpmdd-devel] [PATCH RFC 0/4] RFC: in-kernel resource manager
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:48:15 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170104124815.jzwdx6ybojdgin5p@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20170103214702.GC29656@obsidianresearch.com>
On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 02:47:02PM -0700, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 08:36:10AM -0800, James Bottomley wrote:
>
> > > I'm not sure about this. Why you couldn't have a very thin daemon
> > > that prepares the file descriptor and sends it through UDS socket to
> > > a client.
> >
> > So I'm a bit soured on daemons from the trousers experience: tcsd
> > crashed regularly and when it did it took all the TPM connections down
> > irrecoverably. I'm not saying we can't write a stateless daemon to fix
> > most of the trousers issues, but I think it's valuable first to ask the
> > question, "can we manage without a daemon at all?" I actually think
> > the answer is "yes", so I'm interested in seeing how far that line of
> > research gets us.
>
> There is clearly no need for a daemon to be involved when working on
> simple tasks like key load and key sign/enc/dec actions, adding such a
> thing only increases the complexity.
>
> If we discover a reason to have a daemon down the road then it should
> work in some way where the user space can call out to the daemon over
> a different path than the kernel. (eg dbus or something)
>
> > Do you have a link to the presentation? The Plumbers etherpad doesn't
> > contain it. I've been trying to work out whether a properly set up TPM
> > actually does need any protections at all. As far as I can tell, once
> > you've set all the hierarchy authorities and the lockout one, you're
> > pretty well protected.
>
> I think we should also consider TPM 1.2 support in all of this, it is
> still a very popular peice of hardware and it is equally able to
> support a RM.
I'm not against considering TPM 1.2 support but getting both in the
same patch set would be too much.
>
> So, in general, I'd prefer to see the unprivileged char dev hard
> prevented by the kernel from doing certain things:
>
> - Wipe the TPM
> - Manipulate the SRK, nvram, tpm flags, change passwords etc
> - Read back the EK
> - Write to PCRs
> - etc.
I rather have an ioctl where you can supply a list of CCs that you
want to allow a client to do.
/Jarkko
> Even if TPM 2 has a stronger password based model, I still think the
> kernel should hard prevent those sorts of actions even if the user
> knows the TPM password.
>
> Realistically people in less senstive environments will want to use
> the well known TPM passwords and still have reasonable safety in their
> unprivileged accounts.
>
> Jason
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Jarkko Sakkinen <jarkko.sakkinen-VuQAYsv1563Yd54FQh9/CA@public.gmane.org>
To: Jason Gunthorpe
<jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
Cc: James Bottomley
<James.Bottomley-d9PhHud1JfjCXq6kfMZ53/egYHeGw8Jk@public.gmane.org>,
linux-security-module-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org,
tpmdd-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org,
open list <linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/4] RFC: in-kernel resource manager
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:48:15 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170104124815.jzwdx6ybojdgin5p@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20170103214702.GC29656-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 02:47:02PM -0700, Jason Gunthorpe wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 08:36:10AM -0800, James Bottomley wrote:
>
> > > I'm not sure about this. Why you couldn't have a very thin daemon
> > > that prepares the file descriptor and sends it through UDS socket to
> > > a client.
> >
> > So I'm a bit soured on daemons from the trousers experience: tcsd
> > crashed regularly and when it did it took all the TPM connections down
> > irrecoverably. I'm not saying we can't write a stateless daemon to fix
> > most of the trousers issues, but I think it's valuable first to ask the
> > question, "can we manage without a daemon at all?" I actually think
> > the answer is "yes", so I'm interested in seeing how far that line of
> > research gets us.
>
> There is clearly no need for a daemon to be involved when working on
> simple tasks like key load and key sign/enc/dec actions, adding such a
> thing only increases the complexity.
>
> If we discover a reason to have a daemon down the road then it should
> work in some way where the user space can call out to the daemon over
> a different path than the kernel. (eg dbus or something)
>
> > Do you have a link to the presentation? The Plumbers etherpad doesn't
> > contain it. I've been trying to work out whether a properly set up TPM
> > actually does need any protections at all. As far as I can tell, once
> > you've set all the hierarchy authorities and the lockout one, you're
> > pretty well protected.
>
> I think we should also consider TPM 1.2 support in all of this, it is
> still a very popular peice of hardware and it is equally able to
> support a RM.
I'm not against considering TPM 1.2 support but getting both in the
same patch set would be too much.
>
> So, in general, I'd prefer to see the unprivileged char dev hard
> prevented by the kernel from doing certain things:
>
> - Wipe the TPM
> - Manipulate the SRK, nvram, tpm flags, change passwords etc
> - Read back the EK
> - Write to PCRs
> - etc.
I rather have an ioctl where you can supply a list of CCs that you
want to allow a client to do.
/Jarkko
> Even if TPM 2 has a stronger password based model, I still think the
> kernel should hard prevent those sorts of actions even if the user
> knows the TPM password.
>
> Realistically people in less senstive environments will want to use
> the well known TPM passwords and still have reasonable safety in their
> unprivileged accounts.
>
> Jason
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-01-04 12:49 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 150+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2017-01-02 13:22 [PATCH RFC 0/4] RFC: in-kernel resource manager Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` [PATCH RFC 1/4] tpm: migrate struct tpm_buf to struct tpm_chip Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 21:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-02 21:01 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 0:57 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 19:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 19:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 12:29 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 12:29 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` [PATCH RFC 2/4] tpm: validate TPM 2.0 commands Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
[not found] ` <20170102132213.22880-3-jarkko.sakkinen-VuQAYsv1563Yd54FQh9/CA@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-04 18:04 ` Stefan Berger
2017-01-04 18:19 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-04 18:19 ` James Bottomley
[not found] ` <1483553976.2561.38.camel-23VcF4HTsmIX0ybBhKVfKdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-04 18:59 ` Stefan Berger
[not found] ` <OF3FD1DF4F.FB87C3F2-ON0025809E.00682E9B-8525809E.00684A8A-8eTO7WVQ4XIsd+ienQ86orlN3bxYEBpz@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-04 19:05 ` James Bottomley
[not found] ` <1483556735.2561.53.camel-23VcF4HTsmIX0ybBhKVfKdBPR1lH4CV8@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-04 19:22 ` Stefan Berger
[not found] ` <OFDFABBD23.E5E1F639-ON0025809E.006924C4-8525809E.006A7568-8eTO7WVQ4XIsd+ienQ86orlN3bxYEBpz@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-09 22:17 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
[not found] ` <20170109221700.q7tq362rd6r23d5b-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-09 22:39 ` Stefan Berger
2017-01-04 18:44 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 18:44 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-02 13:22 ` [PATCH RFC 3/4] tpm: export tpm2_flush_context_cmd Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` [PATCH RFC 4/4] tpm: add the infrastructure for TPM space for TPM 2.0 Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 13:22 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 21:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-02 21:09 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 0:37 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 18:46 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 18:46 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 12:43 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 12:43 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 19:16 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 19:16 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 12:45 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 12:45 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
[not found] ` <20170102132213.22880-5-jarkko.sakkinen-VuQAYsv1563Yd54FQh9/CA@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-04 17:50 ` Stefan Berger
2017-01-09 22:11 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 16:36 ` [tpmdd-devel] [PATCH RFC 0/4] RFC: in-kernel resource manager James Bottomley
2017-01-02 19:33 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 19:33 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-02 21:40 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-02 21:40 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-03 5:26 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-03 13:41 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 13:41 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 16:14 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-03 16:14 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-03 18:36 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 18:36 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 19:14 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 19:14 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 19:34 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-03 19:34 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-03 21:54 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 21:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 12:58 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 12:58 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 16:55 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 16:55 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 5:47 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Andy Lutomirski
2017-01-04 13:00 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 13:51 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 13:51 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 16:36 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-03 16:36 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-03 18:40 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-03 21:47 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 22:21 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-03 22:21 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-03 23:20 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 23:20 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20170103214702.GC29656-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-03 22:22 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-03 22:39 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-03 22:39 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-04 0:17 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 0:29 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-04 0:29 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-04 0:56 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 0:56 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 12:50 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 12:50 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-04 14:53 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-04 14:53 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-04 18:31 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 18:31 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 18:57 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-04 18:57 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-04 19:24 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-04 19:24 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20170104001732.GB32185-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-10 18:55 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-04 12:48 ` Jarkko Sakkinen [this message]
2017-01-04 12:48 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
[not found] ` <1483461370.2464.19.camel-d9PhHud1JfjCXq6kfMZ53/egYHeGw8Jk@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-03 22:18 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-03 21:32 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 21:32 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-03 22:03 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-05 15:52 ` Fuchs, Andreas
2017-01-05 15:52 ` Fuchs, Andreas
2017-01-05 17:27 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 17:27 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 18:06 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-05 18:06 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-06 8:43 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-06 8:43 ` Andreas Fuchs
[not found] ` <410e3045-58dc-5415-30c1-c86eb916b6c8-iXjGqz/onsDSyEMIgutvibNAH6kLmebB@public.gmane.org>
2017-01-10 18:57 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-05 18:33 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-05 18:33 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-05 19:20 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 19:20 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 19:55 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-05 19:55 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-05 22:21 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 22:21 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 22:58 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-05 22:58 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-05 23:50 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-05 23:50 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-06 0:36 ` [tpmdd-devel] " James Bottomley
2017-01-06 0:36 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-06 8:59 ` Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-06 8:59 ` Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-06 19:10 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-06 19:10 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-06 19:02 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-06 19:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-10 19:03 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-10 19:03 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-09 22:39 ` [tpmdd-devel] " Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-09 22:39 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-11 10:03 ` Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-11 10:03 ` Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-04 16:12 Dr. Greg Wettstein
2017-01-04 16:12 ` Dr. Greg Wettstein
2017-01-09 23:16 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-10 19:29 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-10 19:29 ` Ken Goldman
2017-01-11 11:36 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-10 20:05 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-11 10:00 ` Andreas Fuchs
2017-01-11 18:03 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-11 18:27 ` Stefan Berger
2017-01-11 19:18 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-11 11:34 ` Jarkko Sakkinen
2017-01-11 15:39 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-11 17:56 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2017-01-11 18:25 ` James Bottomley
2017-01-11 19:04 ` Jason Gunthorpe
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