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* Help with btrfs project
@ 2014-08-20  2:33 Nick Krause
  2014-08-20  5:14 ` Sudip Mukherjee
  2014-08-20 11:49 ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20  2:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

Hey Guys,
This commit seems to be needed to fixed up based on what the btrfs
developers, are stating on their wiki.
Other then the TODO list, which we can discuss here,  is there any
other parts of this patch that need to
be rewritten, it's merged as of now but I can recreate  new patches if
needed from Linus's tree. The project
idea is Clear unallocated space on the btrfs wiki. I AM NOT asking you
to write the code just want  to known
is how you want this cleaned up.
Cheers Nick

>From 55ec5c00022be8f2bbed06b99b5f4be5832a5451 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: David Sterba <dsterba@suse.cz>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:09:09 +0200
Subject: [PATCH 1/1] btrfs: ioctl to clear unused space

abuse discard infrastructure and pass down whether we want to trim or
just zero out. works, does not corrupt data.

TODO:
- more options how to clean (ie. a known signature of freed block, 2
  types of them, or random garbage, or all zeros)
- what to do for SSD mixed with HDD ?

Signed-off-by: David Sterba <dsterba@suse.cz>
---
 fs/btrfs/ctree.h            |    5 ++-
 fs/btrfs/disk-io.c          |    2 +-
 fs/btrfs/extent-tree.c      |   86 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++------
 fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.c |   24 +++++++----
 fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.h |    3 +-
 fs/btrfs/ioctl.c            |   29 ++++++++++++++
 fs/btrfs/ioctl.h            |    9 ++++
 7 files changed, 134 insertions(+), 24 deletions(-)

diff --git a/fs/btrfs/ctree.h b/fs/btrfs/ctree.h
index fa5c45b..e7a87cb 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/ctree.h
+++ b/fs/btrfs/ctree.h
@@ -2655,7 +2655,10 @@ u64
btrfs_account_ro_block_groups_free_space(struct btrfs_space_info
*sinfo);
 int btrfs_error_unpin_extent_range(struct btrfs_root *root,
    u64 start, u64 end);
 int btrfs_error_discard_extent(struct btrfs_root *root, u64 bytenr,
-       u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes);
+       u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes,
+       int do_trim);
+int btrfs_clear_free_space(struct btrfs_root *root,
+ struct btrfs_ioctl_clear_free_args *range);
 int btrfs_force_chunk_alloc(struct btrfs_trans_handle *trans,
     struct btrfs_root *root, u64 type);
 int btrfs_trim_fs(struct btrfs_root *root, struct fstrim_range *range);
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c b/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c
index 2936ca4..77a704d 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c
+++ b/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c
@@ -3580,7 +3580,7 @@ again:
  if (btrfs_test_opt(root, DISCARD))
  ret = btrfs_error_discard_extent(root, start,
  end + 1 - start,
- NULL);
+ NULL, 1);

  clear_extent_dirty(unpin, start, end, GFP_NOFS);
  btrfs_error_unpin_extent_range(root, start, end);
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/extent-tree.c b/fs/btrfs/extent-tree.c
index 6e1d367..26514b9 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/extent-tree.c
+++ b/fs/btrfs/extent-tree.c
@@ -1818,35 +1818,50 @@ static int remove_extent_backref(struct
btrfs_trans_handle *trans,
 }

 static int btrfs_issue_discard(struct block_device *bdev,
- u64 start, u64 len)
+ u64 start, u64 len, int do_trim)
 {
- return blkdev_issue_discard(bdev, start >> 9, len >> 9, GFP_NOFS, 0);
+ printk(KERN_DEBUG "ISSUE ZERO start %llu len %llu\n",
+ (unsigned long long)start, (unsigned long long)len);
+ if (do_trim) {
+ return blkdev_issue_discard(bdev, start >> 9, len >> 9,
+ GFP_NOFS, 0);
+ } else {
+ return blkdev_issue_zeroout(bdev, start >> 9, len >> 9,
+ GFP_NOFS);
+ }
 }

 static int btrfs_discard_extent(struct btrfs_root *root, u64 bytenr,
- u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes)
+ u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes, int do_trim)
 {
  int ret;
  u64 discarded_bytes = 0;
  struct btrfs_bio *bbio = NULL;
+ int rw;
+
+ printk(KERN_DEBUG "discard extent %d: bytenr %llu len %llu\n", do_trim,
+ (unsigned long long)bytenr,
+ (unsigned long long)num_bytes);

+ rw = do_trim ? REQ_DISCARD : REQ_WRITE;
+ rw = REQ_DISCARD;

  /* Tell the block device(s) that the sectors can be discarded */
- ret = btrfs_map_block(&root->fs_info->mapping_tree, REQ_DISCARD,
+ ret = btrfs_map_block(&root->fs_info->mapping_tree, rw,
       bytenr, &num_bytes, &bbio, 0);
  /* Error condition is -ENOMEM */
  if (!ret) {
  struct btrfs_bio_stripe *stripe = bbio->stripes;
  int i;

-
  for (i = 0; i < bbio->num_stripes; i++, stripe++) {
- if (!stripe->dev->can_discard)
+ if (do_trim && !stripe->dev->can_discard)
  continue;

  ret = btrfs_issue_discard(stripe->dev->bdev,
   stripe->physical,
-  stripe->length);
+  stripe->length,
+  do_trim);
  if (!ret)
  discarded_bytes += stripe->length;
  else if (ret != -EOPNOTSUPP)
@@ -4924,7 +4939,7 @@ int btrfs_finish_extent_commit(struct
btrfs_trans_handle *trans,

  if (btrfs_test_opt(root, DISCARD))
  ret = btrfs_discard_extent(root, start,
-   end + 1 - start, NULL);
+   end + 1 - start, NULL, 1);

  clear_extent_dirty(unpin, start, end, GFP_NOFS);
  unpin_extent_range(root, start, end);
@@ -5905,7 +5920,7 @@ static int __btrfs_free_reserved_extent(struct
btrfs_root *root,
  }

  if (btrfs_test_opt(root, DISCARD))
- ret = btrfs_discard_extent(root, start, len, NULL);
+ ret = btrfs_discard_extent(root, start, len, NULL, 1);

  if (pin)
  pin_down_extent(root, cache, start, len, 1);
@@ -7966,9 +7981,10 @@ int btrfs_error_unpin_extent_range(struct
btrfs_root *root, u64 start, u64 end)
 }

 int btrfs_error_discard_extent(struct btrfs_root *root, u64 bytenr,
-       u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes)
+       u64 num_bytes, u64 *actual_bytes, int do_trim)
 {
- return btrfs_discard_extent(root, bytenr, num_bytes, actual_bytes);
+ return btrfs_discard_extent(root, bytenr, num_bytes, actual_bytes,
+ do_trim);
 }

 int btrfs_trim_fs(struct btrfs_root *root, struct fstrim_range *range)
@@ -8010,7 +8026,8 @@ int btrfs_trim_fs(struct btrfs_root *root,
struct fstrim_range *range)
      &group_trimmed,
      start,
      end,
-     range->minlen);
+     range->minlen,
+     1);

  trimmed += group_trimmed;
  if (ret) {
@@ -8025,3 +8042,48 @@ int btrfs_trim_fs(struct btrfs_root *root,
struct fstrim_range *range)
  range->len = trimmed;
  return ret;
 }
+
+int btrfs_clear_free_space(struct btrfs_root *root, struct
btrfs_ioctl_clear_free_args *range)
+{
+ struct btrfs_fs_info *fs_info = root->fs_info;
+ struct btrfs_block_group_cache *cache = NULL;
+ u64 group_trimmed;
+ u64 start;
+ u64 end;
+ int ret = 0;
+
+ range->start = 0;
+ range->length = 1*1024*1024*1024ULL; // 1G
+ range->minlen = 0;
+ cache = btrfs_lookup_first_block_group(fs_info, range->start);
+
+ while (cache) {
+ if (cache->key.objectid >= (range->start + range->length)) {
+ btrfs_put_block_group(cache);
+ break;
+ }
+
+ start = max(range->start, cache->key.objectid);
+ end = min(range->start + range->length,
+ cache->key.objectid + cache->key.offset);
+
+ if (end - start >= range->minlength) {
+ if (!block_group_cache_done(cache)) {
+ ret = cache_block_group(cache, NULL, root, 0);
+ if (!ret)
+ wait_block_group_cache_done(cache);
+ }
+ ret = btrfs_trim_block_group(cache, &group_trimmed,
+ start, end, range->minlen, 0);
+
+ if (ret) {
+ btrfs_put_block_group(cache);
+ break;
+ }
+ }
+
+ cache = next_block_group(fs_info->tree_root, cache);
+ }
+
+ return ret;
+}
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.c b/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.c
index 6c4e2ba..e109aea 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.c
+++ b/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.c
@@ -2590,7 +2590,8 @@ void btrfs_init_free_cluster(struct
btrfs_free_cluster *cluster)

 static int do_trimming(struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
        u64 *total_trimmed, u64 start, u64 bytes,
-       u64 reserved_start, u64 reserved_bytes)
+       u64 reserved_start, u64 reserved_bytes,
+       int do_trim)
 {
  struct btrfs_space_info *space_info = block_group->space_info;
  struct btrfs_fs_info *fs_info = block_group->fs_info;
@@ -2609,7 +2610,8 @@ static int do_trimming(struct
btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
  spin_unlock(&space_info->lock);

  ret = btrfs_error_discard_extent(fs_info->extent_root,
- start, bytes, &trimmed);
+ start, bytes, &trimmed,
+ do_trim);
  if (!ret)
  *total_trimmed += trimmed;

@@ -2630,7 +2632,8 @@ static int do_trimming(struct
btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
 }

 static int trim_no_bitmap(struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
-  u64 *total_trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen)
+  u64 *total_trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen,
+  int do_trim)
 {
  struct btrfs_free_space_ctl *ctl = block_group->free_space_ctl;
  struct btrfs_free_space *entry;
@@ -2685,7 +2688,7 @@ static int trim_no_bitmap(struct
btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
  spin_unlock(&ctl->tree_lock);

  ret = do_trimming(block_group, total_trimmed, start, bytes,
-  extent_start, extent_bytes);
+  extent_start, extent_bytes, do_trim);
  if (ret)
  break;
 next:
@@ -2703,7 +2706,8 @@ out:
 }

 static int trim_bitmaps(struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
- u64 *total_trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen)
+ u64 *total_trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen,
+ int do_trim)
 {
  struct btrfs_free_space_ctl *ctl = block_group->free_space_ctl;
  struct btrfs_free_space *entry;
@@ -2750,7 +2754,7 @@ static int trim_bitmaps(struct
btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
  spin_unlock(&ctl->tree_lock);

  ret = do_trimming(block_group, total_trimmed, start, bytes,
-  start, bytes);
+  start, bytes, do_trim);
  if (ret)
  break;
 next:
@@ -2774,17 +2778,19 @@ next:
 }

 int btrfs_trim_block_group(struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
-   u64 *trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen)
+   u64 *trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen,
+   int do_trim)
 {
  int ret;

  *trimmed = 0;

- ret = trim_no_bitmap(block_group, trimmed, start, end, minlen);
+ ret = trim_no_bitmap(block_group, trimmed, start, end, minlen,
+ do_trim);
  if (ret)
  return ret;

- ret = trim_bitmaps(block_group, trimmed, start, end, minlen);
+ ret = trim_bitmaps(block_group, trimmed, start, end, minlen, do_trim);

  return ret;
 }
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.h b/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.h
index 8f2613f..b3b0217 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.h
+++ b/fs/btrfs/free-space-cache.h
@@ -109,5 +109,6 @@ int btrfs_return_cluster_to_free_space(
        struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
        struct btrfs_free_cluster *cluster);
 int btrfs_trim_block_group(struct btrfs_block_group_cache *block_group,
-   u64 *trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen);
+   u64 *trimmed, u64 start, u64 end, u64 minlen,
+   int do_trim);
 #endif
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/ioctl.c b/fs/btrfs/ioctl.c
index 0e92e57..489791e 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/ioctl.c
+++ b/fs/btrfs/ioctl.c
@@ -3390,6 +3390,33 @@ out:
  return ret;
 }

+static noinline int btrfs_ioctl_clear_free(struct file *file, void __user *arg)
+{
+ struct btrfs_fs_info *fs_info = btrfs_sb(fdentry(file)->d_sb);
+ struct btrfs_ioctl_clear_free_args range;
+ u64 total_bytes = btrfs_super_total_bytes(fs_info->super_copy);
+ int ret;
+
+ if (!capable(CAP_SYS_ADMIN))
+ return -EPERM;
+
+ if (copy_from_user(&range, arg, sizeof(range)))
+ return -EFAULT;
+ if (range.start > total_bytes)
+ return -EINVAL;
+
+ /* range ignored */
+ printk(KERN_DEBUG "ioctl: clear free\n");
+ ret = btrfs_clear_free_space(fs_info->tree_root, &range);
+ if (ret < 0)
+ return ret;
+
+ if (copy_to_user(arg, &range, sizeof(range)))
+ return -EFAULT;
+
+ return 0;
+}
+
 long btrfs_ioctl(struct file *file, unsigned int
  cmd, unsigned long arg)
 {
@@ -3476,6 +3503,8 @@ long btrfs_ioctl(struct file *file, unsigned int
  return btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats(root, argp, 0);
  case BTRFS_IOC_GET_AND_RESET_DEV_STATS:
  return btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats(root, argp, 1);
+ case BTRFS_IOC_CLEAR_FREE:
+ return btrfs_ioctl_clear_free(file, argp);
  }

  return -ENOTTY;
diff --git a/fs/btrfs/ioctl.h b/fs/btrfs/ioctl.h
index e440aa6..52af4a9 100644
--- a/fs/btrfs/ioctl.h
+++ b/fs/btrfs/ioctl.h
@@ -295,6 +295,13 @@ struct btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats {
  __u64 unused[128 - 2 - BTRFS_DEV_STAT_VALUES_MAX]; /* pad to 1k */
 };

+struct btrfs_ioctl_clear_free_args {
+ __u64 start; /* in */
+ __u64 length; /* in */
+ __u64 minlen; /* in */
+ __u64 reserved[125];
+};
+
 #define BTRFS_IOC_SNAP_CREATE _IOW(BTRFS_IOCTL_MAGIC, 1, \
    struct btrfs_ioctl_vol_args)
 #define BTRFS_IOC_DEFRAG _IOW(BTRFS_IOCTL_MAGIC, 2, \
@@ -363,5 +370,7 @@ struct btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats {
       struct btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats)
 #define BTRFS_IOC_GET_AND_RESET_DEV_STATS _IOWR(BTRFS_IOCTL_MAGIC, 53, \
  struct btrfs_ioctl_get_dev_stats)
+#define BTRFS_IOC_CLEAR_FREE _IOW(BTRFS_IOCTL_MAGIC, 90, \
+ struct btrfs_ioctl_clear_free_args)

 #endif
-- 
1.7.6.6.GIT

^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20  2:33 Help with btrfs project Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20  5:14 ` Sudip Mukherjee
  2014-08-20 11:50   ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  2014-08-20 11:49 ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Sudip Mukherjee @ 2014-08-20  5:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Nick Krause <xerofoify@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys,
> This commit seems to be needed to fixed up based on what the btrfs
> developers, are stating on their wiki.
> Other then the TODO list, which we can discuss here,  is there any
> other parts of this patch that need to
> be rewritten, it's merged as of now but I can recreate  new patches if
> needed from Linus's tree. The project
> idea is Clear unallocated space on the btrfs wiki. I AM NOT asking you
> to write the code just want  to known
> is how you want this cleaned up.
> Cheers Nick
>

Hey Nick,
It seems like you are an expert on btrfs . Can you please let me know
a few questions i have :
1) is btrfs better than ext4 ? if yes , how ?
2) what is the main difference in the implementation of ext4 and btrfs ?
3) I know very little about file systems , but i know ext4 uses
journaling file system. will you please care to explain what is
journaling file system?
4) btrfs supports online defragmentation ... how that is implemented ?

Thanks
Sudip

PS : a simple google search will give the answers  , but i will want
the answers from Nick .

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20  2:33 Help with btrfs project Nick Krause
  2014-08-20  5:14 ` Sudip Mukherjee
@ 2014-08-20 11:49 ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu @ 2014-08-20 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 22:33:28 -0400, Nick Krause said:

> Other then the TODO list, which we can discuss here,  is there any
> other parts of this patch that need to
> be rewritten, it's merged as of now

If this total turd of a patch was merged by an upstream maintainer, said
maintainer needs to be taken out back and shot.

And quite frankly, we don't care what you've merged into a local tree.

> is how you want this cleaned up.

Take it out back and shoot it.

> From: David Sterba <dsterba@suse.cz>
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 15:09:09 +0200
> Subject: [PATCH 1/1] btrfs: ioctl to clear unused space

Nick, you were *told* to quit trying to evade banishments by changing
names.  If this is actually from a Suse developer, they are perfectly
able to do their own work and upstream it.  If this is a patch from
2012 and *still* not upstreamed, there's probably good reasons for it.

> --- a/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c
> +++ b/fs/btrfs/disk-io.c
> @@ -3580,7 +3580,7 @@ again:
>   if (btrfs_test_opt(root, DISCARD))
>   ret = btrfs_error_discard_extent(root, start,
>   end + 1 - start,
> - NULL);
> + NULL, 1);

I don't know *what* you did to your git tree, but this is *not* how
kernel code is formatted. People who submit code that's *THIS* poorly
formatted even after they've been warned before are *not* welcome
in the kernel community.

I'm sorry Nick, but you've worn out pretty much all of whatever little
welcome you had left.



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20  5:14 ` Sudip Mukherjee
@ 2014-08-20 11:50   ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  2014-08-20 12:11     ` Sudip Mukherjee
  2014-08-20 15:22     ` Philipp Muhoray
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu @ 2014-08-20 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:44:41 +0530, Sudip Mukherjee said:

> Hey Nick,
> It seems like you are an expert on btrfs . Can you please let me know

He's not.  Please do not rely on any information Nick may provide, as he is
either hopelessly clueless, or actively trolling the kernel community.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 11:50   ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
@ 2014-08-20 12:11     ` Sudip Mukherjee
  2014-08-20 15:46       ` Jason Conklin
  2014-08-20 15:22     ` Philipp Muhoray
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Sudip Mukherjee @ 2014-08-20 12:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Aug 20, 2014 5:20 PM, <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> He's not.  Please do not rely on any information Nick may provide, as he
is
> either hopelessly clueless, or actively trolling the kernel community.

hi valdis,
i know he is not. just want to see if he has atleast googled about btrfs or
just ... (sorry i cant think of a good word which might come here)..
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 11:50   ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
  2014-08-20 12:11     ` Sudip Mukherjee
@ 2014-08-20 15:22     ` Philipp Muhoray
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Philipp Muhoray @ 2014-08-20 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies


Am 2014-08-20 13:50, schrieb Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu:
> On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 10:44:41 +0530, Sudip Mukherjee said:
>
>> Hey Nick,
>> It seems like you are an expert on btrfs . Can you please let me know
> He's not.  Please do not rely on any information Nick may provide, as he is
> either hopelessly clueless, or actively trolling the kernel community.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
I'm starting to believe that it's the latter. Nick seems like a tumbler 
that will get up again no matter what you do.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 12:11     ` Sudip Mukherjee
@ 2014-08-20 15:46       ` Jason Conklin
  2014-08-20 16:33         ` Mandeep Sandhu
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jason Conklin @ 2014-08-20 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
[1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.

I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
just trying to learn as well as he knows how.

Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.

The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.

I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
above can provide a little context to help the community make more
fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
your frustrations.

Jason Conklin


[1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)

[2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 15:46       ` Jason Conklin
@ 2014-08-20 16:33         ` Mandeep Sandhu
  2014-08-20 17:15           ` Lidza Louina
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Mandeep Sandhu @ 2014-08-20 16:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

Agree with Jason here.

If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>
> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>
> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>
> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>
> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
> your frustrations.
>
> Jason Conklin
>
>
> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>
> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 16:33         ` Mandeep Sandhu
@ 2014-08-20 17:15           ` Lidza Louina
  2014-08-20 17:20             ` Nick Krause
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lidza Louina @ 2014-08-20 17:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

I agree with Jason.

I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
difficult for everyone.

Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
better interact with people with communication disorders and others
with Autism.

Lidza

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
<mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agree with Jason here.
>
> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>
>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>
>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>
>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>
>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>> your frustrations.
>>
>> Jason Conklin
>>
>>
>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>
>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:15           ` Lidza Louina
@ 2014-08-20 17:20             ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:24               ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:25               ` Philipp Muhoray
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lidza Louina <lidza.louina@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Jason.
>
> I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
> be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
> don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
> email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
> Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
> voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
> disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
> man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
> emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
> he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
> difficult for everyone.
>
> Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
> tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
> better interact with people with communication disorders and others
> with Autism.
>
> Lidza
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
> <mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Agree with Jason here.
>>
>> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
>> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
>> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>>
>>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>>
>>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>>
>>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>>
>>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>>> your frustrations.
>>>
>>> Jason Conklin
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>>
>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
The issue isn't the emails, it's that I am not custom to working in
a high level programming environment. If someone just explains
what I should not do in a written list of rules, I should be fine :).
Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:20             ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20 17:24               ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:25               ` Philipp Muhoray
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Nick Krause <xerofoify@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lidza Louina <lidza.louina@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with Jason.
>>
>> I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
>> be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
>> don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
>> email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
>> Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
>> voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
>> disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
>> man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
>> emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
>> he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
>> difficult for everyone.
>>
>> Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
>> tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
>> better interact with people with communication disorders and others
>> with Autism.
>>
>> Lidza
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
>> <mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Agree with Jason here.
>>>
>>> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
>>> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
>>> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>>>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>>>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>>>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>>>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>>>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>>>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>>>
>>>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>>>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>>>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>>>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>>>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>>>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>>>
>>>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>>>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>>>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>>>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>>>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>>>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>>>
>>>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>>>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>>>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>>>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>>>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>>>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>>>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>>>
>>>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>>>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>>>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>>>> your frustrations.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Conklin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>>>
>>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> The issue isn't the emails, it's that I am not custom to working in
> a high level programming environment. If someone just explains
> what I should not do in a written list of rules, I should be fine :).
> Nick
In addition it's now not considered a disability most medical professionals
consider it a huge advantage.
Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:20             ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:24               ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20 17:25               ` Philipp Muhoray
  2014-08-20 17:30                 ` Nick Krause
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Philipp Muhoray @ 2014-08-20 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies


Am 2014-08-20 19:20, schrieb Nick Krause:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lidza Louina <lidza.louina@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree with Jason.
>>
>> I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
>> be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
>> don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
>> email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
>> Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
>> voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
>> disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
>> man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
>> emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
>> he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
>> difficult for everyone.
>>
>> Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
>> tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
>> better interact with people with communication disorders and others
>> with Autism.
>>
>> Lidza
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
>> <mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Agree with Jason here.
>>>
>>> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
>>> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
>>> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>>>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>>>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>>>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>>>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>>>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>>>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>>>
>>>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>>>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>>>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>>>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>>>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>>>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>>>
>>>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>>>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>>>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>>>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>>>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>>>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>>>
>>>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>>>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>>>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>>>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>>>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>>>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>>>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>>>
>>>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>>>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>>>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>>>> your frustrations.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Conklin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>>>
>>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> The issue isn't the emails, it's that I am not custom to working in
> a high level programming environment. If someone just explains
> what I should not do in a written list of rules, I should be fine :).
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Here's a task for you, then:
Reread all of our mails from the last few days regarding your behavior, 
and extract anything that we said you should or shouldn't do. Write it 
down in the form of a list, pin it on your wall and commit to it.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:25               ` Philipp Muhoray
@ 2014-08-20 17:30                 ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:33                   ` Nick Krause
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20 17:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Philipp Muhoray
<philipp.muhoray@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Am 2014-08-20 19:20, schrieb Nick Krause:
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lidza Louina <lidza.louina@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I agree with Jason.
>>>
>>> I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
>>> be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
>>> don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
>>> email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
>>> Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
>>> voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
>>> disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
>>> man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
>>> emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
>>> he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
>>> difficult for everyone.
>>>
>>> Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
>>> tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
>>> better interact with people with communication disorders and others
>>> with Autism.
>>>
>>> Lidza
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
>>> <mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Agree with Jason here.
>>>>
>>>> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
>>>> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
>>>> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>>>>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>>>>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>>>>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>>>>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>>>>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>>>>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>>>>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>>>>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>>>>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>>>>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>>>>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>>>>
>>>>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>>>>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>>>>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>>>>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>>>>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>>>>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>>>>
>>>>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>>>>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>>>>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>>>>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>>>>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>>>>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>>>>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>>>>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>>>>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>>>>> your frustrations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason Conklin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>>>>
>>>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>> The issue isn't the emails, it's that I am not custom to working in
>> a high level programming environment. If someone just explains
>> what I should not do in a written list of rules, I should be fine :).
>> Nick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> Here's a task for you, then:
> Reread all of our mails from the last few days regarding your behavior,
> and extract anything that we said you should or shouldn't do. Write it
> down in the form of a list, pin it on your wall and commit to it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Sure that's fine.
Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:30                 ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20 17:33                   ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 17:58                     ` Sudip Mukherjee
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Nick Krause <xerofoify@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Philipp Muhoray
> <philipp.muhoray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Am 2014-08-20 19:20, schrieb Nick Krause:
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Lidza Louina <lidza.louina@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I agree with Jason.
>>>>
>>>> I do want Nick to learn the kernel (anyone who wants to learn should
>>>> be able to and we're always looking for new developers) but most of us
>>>> don't have the time or training to be able to help him. Learning via
>>>> email seems to be a very bad medium for him to get a kernel education.
>>>> Emails already take away the human element from communicating (tone of
>>>> voice, facial expressions, etc), and on top of that he has this
>>>> disorder. I really believe that if he finds someone to act as a middle
>>>> man between him and the kernel making sure that he understands our
>>>> emails (to the best of his ability), will help tremendously. I'm sure
>>>> he's smart enough and earnest, but his Asperger's is making this very
>>>> difficult for everyone.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully once a system that works for him is set in place, he can
>>>> tell us what is working for him and the kernel could learn how to
>>>> better interact with people with communication disorders and others
>>>> with Autism.
>>>>
>>>> Lidza
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Mandeep Sandhu
>>>> <mandeepsandhu.chd@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Agree with Jason here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't find his questions palatable, just _ignore_ them instead
>>>>> of sending rants and sarcastic emails which just wastes more of your
>>>>> own time. That way the SNR of this list will improve! :)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Jason Conklin <jason.conklin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Guys, stop it. Nick has told us he has Asperger syndrome; as such, he
>>>>>> is not likely to understand facetious or flippant remarks for what
>>>>>> they are. The time you've spent responding to Nick's emails would be
>>>>>> much better used reading a little about autism spectrum disorders
>>>>>> [1,2] and the kinds of difficulty and confusion they cause in more
>>>>>> normal ("neurotypical") contexts, for both AS people and the people
>>>>>> they interact with. Otherwise, just move on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not a psychologist or an expert on autism spectrum disorders, but
>>>>>> I know enough to recognize that his behavior on this and other lists
>>>>>> is consistent with several aspects of those disorders. The sad thing
>>>>>> is that he's getting treated as a malicious troll or a fool, when it's
>>>>>> pretty clear (to me, anyway) that he's fascinated by the kernel and
>>>>>> just trying to learn as well as he knows how.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without going into autism spectrum intricacies or speculating on
>>>>>> Nick's particular traits, I'll note that Aspergers is "characterized
>>>>>> by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal
>>>>>> communication" (from Wikipedia) -- which we have seen repeatedly in
>>>>>> Nick's frequently inappropriate and unresearched questions and
>>>>>> misunderstanding/misuse of the good advice he has received.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The resulting frustration is understandable. I acknowledge that the
>>>>>> format of this and especially the working kernel lists is simply not
>>>>>> equipped to handle Nick's sort of engagement. The best practice, if
>>>>>> you're frustrated by Nick's emails, is probably to follow the protocol
>>>>>> for feeding trolls -- ie, don't -- even though his motivations are
>>>>>> different from what I'd consider a "real" troll's. You simply cannot
>>>>>> expect him to respond (neuro)typically to your input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't intend to discuss this here anymore, but I really hope the
>>>>>> above can provide a little context to help the community make more
>>>>>> fruitful decisions in response to Nick's questions, or at least temper
>>>>>> your frustrations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jason Conklin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://bit.ly/1odpfrd (Wikipedia: Autism spectrum)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [2] http://bit.ly/1rmgrHg (Wikipedia: Asperger syndrome)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>>> The issue isn't the emails, it's that I am not custom to working in
>>> a high level programming environment. If someone just explains
>>> what I should not do in a written list of rules, I should be fine :).
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
>> Here's a task for you, then:
>> Reread all of our mails from the last few days regarding your behavior,
>> and extract anything that we said you should or shouldn't do. Write it
>> down in the form of a list, pin it on your wall and commit to it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kernelnewbies mailing list
>> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
>> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> Sure that's fine.
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> http://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
Phillip,
I would like to get back on the list for some work with the btrfs
developers and I was banned.
If someone would allow the ban to be removed, I would find it much
easier as I can email
the right developers with my patches and questions rather then just
trying to get in through
kernel newbies.
Cheers Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:33                   ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20 17:58                     ` Sudip Mukherjee
  2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Sudip Mukherjee @ 2014-08-20 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

> I would like to get back on the list for some work with the btrfs
> developers and I was banned.
> If someone would allow the ban to be removed, I would find it much
> easier as I can email
> the right developers with my patches and questions rather then just
> trying to get in through
> kernel newbies.
> Cheers Nick
>

nick,
i asked a few questions . why dont you answer them and show every one that
you can.
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 17:58                     ` Sudip Mukherjee
@ 2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 23:58                         ` Andrej Manduch
                                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-20 21:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Sudip Mukherjee
<sudipm.mukherjee@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would like to get back on the list for some work with the btrfs
>> developers and I was banned.
>> If someone would allow the ban to be removed, I would find it much
>> easier as I can email
>> the right developers with my patches and questions rather then just
>> trying to get in through
>> kernel newbies.
>> Cheers Nick
>>
>
> nick,
> i asked a few questions . why dont you answer them and show every one that
> you can.
I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions and
I can answer.
Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-20 23:58                         ` Andrej Manduch
  2014-08-20 23:59                         ` Andrej Manduch
  2014-08-21  0:21                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Andrej Manduch @ 2014-08-20 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/20/2014 11:25 PM, Nick Krause wrote:
> I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions
> and I can answer. Nick

http://www.spinics.net/lists/newbies/msg53374.html

- --
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 23:58                         ` Andrej Manduch
@ 2014-08-20 23:59                         ` Andrej Manduch
  2014-08-21  0:21                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Andrej Manduch @ 2014-08-20 23:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On 08/20/2014 11:25 PM, Nick Krause wrote:
> I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions
> and I can answer. Nick

http://www.spinics.net/lists/newbies/msg53374.html

--
b.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-20 23:58                         ` Andrej Manduch
  2014-08-20 23:59                         ` Andrej Manduch
@ 2014-08-21  0:21                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
  2014-08-21  2:47                           ` Nick Krause
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Bernd Petrovitsch @ 2014-08-21  0:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Mit, 2014-08-20 at 17:25 -0400, Nick Krause wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Sudip Mukherjee
> <sudipm.mukherjee@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > i asked a few questions . why dont you answer them and show every one that
> > you can.
> I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions and

It is *your* fault if *you* delete *your* mails, so fix it *youself*
and don't (try to) push effort to others - as you do from mail #2.

How should *you* fix *your* immediate failure: Google the mails *you*
deleted or just search and find it one of the various archives of the
LKML.

Sorry, you wasted too much time and bandwidth of everyone ....

	Bernd
-- 
"I dislike type abstraction if it has no real reason. And saving
on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main
issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong."
    - Linus Torvalds

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-21  0:21                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
@ 2014-08-21  2:47                           ` Nick Krause
  2014-08-21  4:18                             ` Nick Krause
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-21  2:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Bernd Petrovitsch
<bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at> wrote:
> On Mit, 2014-08-20 at 17:25 -0400, Nick Krause wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Sudip Mukherjee
>> <sudipm.mukherjee@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>> > i asked a few questions . why dont you answer them and show every one that
>> > you can.
>> I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions and
>
> It is *your* fault if *you* delete *your* mails, so fix it *youself*
> and don't (try to) push effort to others - as you do from mail #2.
>
> How should *you* fix *your* immediate failure: Google the mails *you*
> deleted or just search and find it one of the various archives of the
> LKML.
>
> Sorry, you wasted too much time and bandwidth of everyone ....
>
>         Bernd
> --
> "I dislike type abstraction if it has no real reason. And saving
> on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main
> issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong."
>     - Linus Torvalds
>
The areas for Sudip's questions are below.
1. Btrfs is suppose to replace ext4 as the default Linux file system
due to ext4 having no
features like sub volumes and build in compression. Over all due it's
great features ZFS
still is the default choice in the enterprise and data center space,
but btrfs hows to challenge
the reigning king and make btrfs the default, Oracle developers
started this file system as
their was no good file system on Linux with features like ZFS.
2. Btrfs  allows for unlimited files due to dynamic inode creation and
not a fixed inode count.
In addition in supports sub volumes and build in compression using
certain compression
algorithms. In addition most of it's design is build for large COW file systems.
3. Journaling is the ability of  a file system to keep a log of data
and if the file system is not
in a known good state , the file system will roll back the file system
to the last known good
state, mostly thought of as the file system log.
4. Btrfs does support this in a basic form but not as a tested and
tried fsck online check for
enterprise or critical workloads.
Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

* Help with btrfs project
  2014-08-21  2:47                           ` Nick Krause
@ 2014-08-21  4:18                             ` Nick Krause
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Nick Krause @ 2014-08-21  4:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: kernelnewbies

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Nick Krause <xerofoify@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Bernd Petrovitsch
> <bernd@petrovitsch.priv.at> wrote:
>> On Mit, 2014-08-20 at 17:25 -0400, Nick Krause wrote:
>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 1:58 PM, Sudip Mukherjee
>>> <sudipm.mukherjee@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>> > i asked a few questions . why dont you answer them and show every one that
>>> > you can.
>>> I may have deleted your email but , please send me your questions and
>>
>> It is *your* fault if *you* delete *your* mails, so fix it *youself*
>> and don't (try to) push effort to others - as you do from mail #2.
>>
>> How should *you* fix *your* immediate failure: Google the mails *you*
>> deleted or just search and find it one of the various archives of the
>> LKML.
>>
>> Sorry, you wasted too much time and bandwidth of everyone ....
>>
>>         Bernd
>> --
>> "I dislike type abstraction if it has no real reason. And saving
>> on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main
>> issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong."
>>     - Linus Torvalds
>>
> The areas for Sudip's questions are below.
> 1. Btrfs is suppose to replace ext4 as the default Linux file system
> due to ext4 having no
> features like sub volumes and build in compression. Over all due it's
> great features ZFS
> still is the default choice in the enterprise and data center space,
> but btrfs hows to challenge
> the reigning king and make btrfs the default, Oracle developers
> started this file system as
> their was no good file system on Linux with features like ZFS.
> 2. Btrfs  allows for unlimited files due to dynamic inode creation and
> not a fixed inode count.
> In addition in supports sub volumes and build in compression using
> certain compression
> algorithms. In addition most of it's design is build for large COW file systems.
> 3. Journaling is the ability of  a file system to keep a log of data
> and if the file system is not
> in a known good state , the file system will roll back the file system
> to the last known good
> state, mostly thought of as the file system log.
> 4. Btrfs does support this in a basic form but not as a tested and
> tried fsck online check for
> enterprise or critical workloads.
> Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2014-08-21  4:18 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-08-20  2:33 Help with btrfs project Nick Krause
2014-08-20  5:14 ` Sudip Mukherjee
2014-08-20 11:50   ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu
2014-08-20 12:11     ` Sudip Mukherjee
2014-08-20 15:46       ` Jason Conklin
2014-08-20 16:33         ` Mandeep Sandhu
2014-08-20 17:15           ` Lidza Louina
2014-08-20 17:20             ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 17:24               ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 17:25               ` Philipp Muhoray
2014-08-20 17:30                 ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 17:33                   ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 17:58                     ` Sudip Mukherjee
2014-08-20 21:25                       ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 23:58                         ` Andrej Manduch
2014-08-20 23:59                         ` Andrej Manduch
2014-08-21  0:21                         ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2014-08-21  2:47                           ` Nick Krause
2014-08-21  4:18                             ` Nick Krause
2014-08-20 15:22     ` Philipp Muhoray
2014-08-20 11:49 ` Valdis.Kletnieks at vt.edu

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