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From: NeilBrown <neilb@suse.com>
To: Andreas Dilger <adilger@dilger.ca>,
	"J. Bruce Fields" <bfields@fieldses.org>
Cc: David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/4] Enhanced file stat system call
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:29:57 +1100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87h975fm0q.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3852DE26-42A6-4AFF-AA9C-08C4E9837511@dilger.ca>

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On Fri, Nov 18 2016, Andreas Dilger wrote:

> [ Unknown signature status ]
>
>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 1:00 PM, J. Bruce Fields <bfields@fieldses.org> wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 04:45:45PM +0000, David Howells wrote:
>>> One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> (2) Lightweight stat (AT_STATX_DONT_SYNC): Ask for just those details of
>>>>>     interest, and allow a network fs to approximate anything not of
>>>>>     interest, without going to the server.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (3) Heavyweight stat (AT_STATX_FORCE_SYNC): Force a network fs to flush
>>>>>     buffers and go to the server, even if it thinks its cached attributes
>>>>>     are up to date.
>>>> 
>>>> That seems an odd way to do it. Wouldn't it be cleaner and more flexible
>>>> to give a timestamp of the oldest time you consider acceptable (and
>>>> obviously passing 0 indicates whatever you have)
>>> 
>>> Perhaps, though adding 6-argument syscalls is apparently frowned upon.
>>> 
>>>>> Note that no lstat() equivalent is required as that can be implemented
>>>>> through statx() with atflag == 0.  There is also no fstat() equivalent as
>>>>> that can be implemented through statx() with filename == NULL and the
>>>>> relevant fd passed as dfd.
>>>> 
>>>> and dfd + a name gives you fstatat() ?
>>> 
>>> Yes.
>>> 
>>>> The cover note could be clearer on this.
>>> 
>>> Fixed.
>>> 
>>>> Should the fields really be split the way they are for times rather than
>>>> a struct for each one so you can write code generically to handle one of
>>>> those rather than having to have a 4 way switch statement all the time.
>>> 
>>> It depends.  Doing so leaves 16 bytes of hole in the structure.  I could
>>> ameliorate the wastage by using a union to overlay useful fields in the gaps,
>>> but that's pretty icky and might be compiler dependent.
>>> 
>>>> Another attribute that would be nice (but migt need some trivial device
>>>> layer tweaking) would be STATX_ATTR_VOLATILE for filesystems that will
>>>> probably evaporate on a reboot. That's useful information for tools like
>>>> installers and also for sanity checking things like backup paths.
>>> 
>>> There's a FILE_ATTRIBUTE_TEMPORARY that I could map for windows filesystems
>>> that could be used with this.
>>> 
>>>> Remote needs to have clear semantics: is ext4fs over nbd 'remote' for
>>>> example ?
>>> 
>>> Hmmm... Interesting question.  Probably should.  But you could be insane and
>>> RAID an nbd and a local disk.  Further, does NFS over a loopback device to
>>> nfsd on the same machine qualify as root?  What if that's exposing a local fs
>>> on NBD?  Perhaps I should drop 'REMOTE' for now.  It sounds like something
>>> that a GUI filemanager might find interesting, though.
>> 
>> Sorry, I haven't been paying attention, just popping up for this, but:
>> "shared" might be a more useful term than "remote".
>> 
>> A filesystem that may be mounted from more than one system is "shared".
>> Caching performance and semantics of such a filesystem are more
>> complicated since the filesystem may change out from under us.  This is
>> what makes e.g. the lightweight/heavyweight stat difference more
>> interesting in the shared case.
>> 
>> The filesystem should be able to make that shared/unshared distinction
>> without knowledge of the storage it's sitting on top of.
>> 
>> Answering your questions by that criterion:
>> 
>> 	- ext4/nbd: not shared
>> 	- nfs/lo: shared
>> 
>> But, it's fine with me to drop any features for now as long as we can
>> always add them later.
>
> Please, please, please, let's get the syscall and basic functionality
> landed first, and then nit-pick about extensions later.  This has been
> dragging on for _years_ and bike shedded to death.

I very much agree with this, but I think it will require dropping (not
replacing yet) things that do not have a well defined meaning, including

> 	STATX_ATTR_KERNEL_API		File is kernel API (eg: procfs/sysfs)
> 	STATX_ATTR_REMOTE		File is remote and needs network
> 	STATX_ATTR_FABRICATED		File was made up by fs

Without clear guidance on how the filesystem should choose to set these,
and how a program should interpret them, they are worse than noise.
I imagine each could possibly be useful, but without clear unambiguous
documentation, they aren't.
So just remove them for now, and consider adding them once the core
syscall has landed.

NeilBrown

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  reply	other threads:[~2016-11-18  4:30 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 52+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-11-17 13:34 David Howells
2016-11-17 13:35 ` [PATCH 1/4] statx: Add a system call to make enhanced file info available David Howells
2016-11-17 18:39   ` Jeff Layton
2016-11-18  2:32     ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-18  8:59     ` David Howells
2016-11-18  8:59       ` David Howells
2016-11-18  9:25       ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-18  9:25         ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-17 23:40   ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18  3:28     ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-18 22:07       ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18 22:54       ` David Howells
2016-11-19 22:43         ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-21 14:30         ` One Thousand Gnomes
2016-11-21 20:43           ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-22 10:39         ` David Howells
2016-11-22 13:55           ` Jeff Layton
2016-11-22 20:58           ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18  9:53     ` David Howells
2016-11-18  8:48   ` David Howells
2016-11-18 12:01     ` Jeff Layton
2016-11-18  9:36   ` David Howells
2016-11-18 17:17     ` Jeff Layton
2016-11-18 18:04     ` David Howells
2016-11-18 18:54       ` Jeff Layton
2016-11-18 19:08       ` David Howells
2016-11-18  9:43   ` David Howells
2016-11-18 21:41     ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18 22:24     ` David Howells
2016-11-18 10:29   ` David Howells
2016-11-18 10:29     ` David Howells
2016-11-18 21:27     ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18 21:48     ` David Howells
2016-11-18 21:48       ` David Howells
2016-11-18 22:17       ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-18 22:17         ` Dave Chinner
2016-11-19 10:21         ` Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)
2016-11-17 13:35 ` [PATCH 2/4] statx: Ext4: Return enhanced file attributes David Howells
2016-11-18  3:30   ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-17 13:35 ` [PATCH 3/4] statx: NFS: " David Howells
2016-11-17 13:35 ` [PATCH 4/4] statx: AFS: " David Howells
2016-11-18  3:34   ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-18  8:47   ` David Howells
2016-11-17 14:39 ` [RFC][PATCH 0/4] Enhanced file stat system call One Thousand Gnomes
2016-11-17 15:10 ` Michael Kerrisk
2016-11-17 16:33 ` David Howells
2016-11-17 16:45 ` David Howells
2016-11-17 20:00   ` J. Bruce Fields
2016-11-18  2:30     ` Andreas Dilger
2016-11-18  4:29       ` NeilBrown [this message]
2016-11-18 13:41   ` One Thousand Gnomes
2016-11-18 13:49   ` David Howells

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