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From: "Jason A. Donenfeld" <Jason@zx2c4.com>
To: Jean-Philippe Aumasson <jeanphilippe.aumasson@gmail.com>
Cc: George Spelvin <linux@sciencehorizons.net>,
	Andi Kleen <ak@linux.intel.com>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	David Laight <David.Laight@aculab.com>,
	Eric Biggers <ebiggers3@gmail.com>,
	Hannes Frederic Sowa <hannes@stressinduktion.org>,
	kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com,
	Linux Crypto Mailing List <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>,
	Netdev <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	"Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>,
	vegard.nossum@gmail.com, "Daniel J . Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 1/4] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:51:35 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAHmME9rxCYfwyF6EADWqpAEt+yqCPgCLUVH0FPdAy7r-oPnrRg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGiyFddB_HT3H2yhYQ5rprYZ487rJ4iCaH9uPJQD57hiPbn9ng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi JP & George,

My function names:
- SipHash -> siphash
- HalfSipHash -> hsiphash

It appears that hsiphash can produce either 32-bit output or 64-bit
output, with the output length parameter as part of the hash algorithm
in there. When I code this for my kernel patchset, I very likely will
only implement one output length size. Right now I'm leaning toward
32-bit. Questions:

- Is this a reasonable choice?
- When hsiphash is desired due to its faster speed, are there any
circumstances in which producing a 64-bit output would actually be
useful? Namely, are there any hashtables that could benefit from a
64-bit functions?
- Are there reasons why hsiphash with 64-bit output would be
reasonable? Or will we be fine sticking with 32-bit output only?

With both hsiphash and siphash, the division of usage will probably become:
- Use 64-bit output 128-bit key siphash for keyed RNG-like things,
such as syncookies and sequence numbers
- Use 64-bit output 128-bit key siphash for hashtables that must
absolutely be secure to an extremely high bandwidth attacker, such as
userspace directly DoSing a kernel hashtable
- Use 32-bit output 64-bit key hsiphash for quick hashtable functions
that still must be secure but do not require as large of a security
margin

Sound good?

Jason

WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: "Jason A. Donenfeld" <Jason@zx2c4.com>
To: Jean-Philippe Aumasson <jeanphilippe.aumasson@gmail.com>
Cc: George Spelvin <linux@sciencehorizons.net>,
	Andi Kleen <ak@linux.intel.com>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	David Laight <David.Laight@aculab.com>,
	Eric Biggers <ebiggers3@gmail.com>,
	Hannes Frederic Sowa <hannes@stressinduktion.org>,
	kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com,
	Linux Crypto Mailing List <linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>,
	Netdev <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
	vegard.nossum@gmail.com, "Daniel J . Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
Subject: [kernel-hardening] Re: [PATCH v5 1/4] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:51:35 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAHmME9rxCYfwyF6EADWqpAEt+yqCPgCLUVH0FPdAy7r-oPnrRg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGiyFddB_HT3H2yhYQ5rprYZ487rJ4iCaH9uPJQD57hiPbn9ng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi JP & George,

My function names:
- SipHash -> siphash
- HalfSipHash -> hsiphash

It appears that hsiphash can produce either 32-bit output or 64-bit
output, with the output length parameter as part of the hash algorithm
in there. When I code this for my kernel patchset, I very likely will
only implement one output length size. Right now I'm leaning toward
32-bit. Questions:

- Is this a reasonable choice?
- When hsiphash is desired due to its faster speed, are there any
circumstances in which producing a 64-bit output would actually be
useful? Namely, are there any hashtables that could benefit from a
64-bit functions?
- Are there reasons why hsiphash with 64-bit output would be
reasonable? Or will we be fine sticking with 32-bit output only?

With both hsiphash and siphash, the division of usage will probably become:
- Use 64-bit output 128-bit key siphash for keyed RNG-like things,
such as syncookies and sequence numbers
- Use 64-bit output 128-bit key siphash for hashtables that must
absolutely be secure to an extremely high bandwidth attacker, such as
userspace directly DoSing a kernel hashtable
- Use 32-bit output 64-bit key hsiphash for quick hashtable functions
that still must be secure but do not require as large of a security
margin

Sound good?

Jason

  reply	other threads:[~2016-12-16 15:51 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-12-15 20:29 [PATCH v5 0/4] The SipHash Patchset Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:29 ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30 ` [PATCH v5 1/4] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30   ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 22:42   ` George Spelvin
2016-12-15 22:42     ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-15 23:00     ` Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-15 23:00       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-15 23:28       ` George Spelvin
2016-12-15 23:28         ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 17:06         ` David Laight
2016-12-16 17:06           ` [kernel-hardening] " David Laight
2016-12-16 17:06           ` David Laight
2016-12-16 17:09           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 17:09             ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 17:09             ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:46       ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16  3:46         ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16  8:08         ` Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-16  8:08           ` [kernel-hardening] " Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-16 12:39           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 12:39             ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 13:22             ` Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-16 13:22               ` [kernel-hardening] " Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-16 15:51               ` Jason A. Donenfeld [this message]
2016-12-16 15:51                 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 17:36                 ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 17:36                   ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 18:00                   ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 18:00                     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 20:17                     ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 20:17                       ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 20:43                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-16 20:43                         ` [kernel-hardening] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-16 22:13                         ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 22:13                           ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 22:15                           ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16 22:15                             ` [kernel-hardening] " Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16 22:15                             ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16 22:18                           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 22:18                             ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 23:44                             ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 23:44                               ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-17  1:39                               ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-17  1:39                                 ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-17  2:15                                 ` George Spelvin
2016-12-17  2:15                                   ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-17 15:41                                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-17 15:41                                     ` [kernel-hardening] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-17 16:14                                     ` Jeffrey Walton
2016-12-17 16:14                                       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jeffrey Walton
2016-12-19 17:21                                     ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-17 12:42                 ` George Spelvin
2016-12-17 12:42                   ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 20:39               ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 20:39                 ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 19:47             ` Tom Herbert
2016-12-16 19:47               ` [kernel-hardening] " Tom Herbert
2016-12-16 20:41               ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 20:41                 ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-16 20:57                 ` Tom Herbert
2016-12-16 20:57                   ` [kernel-hardening] " Tom Herbert
2016-12-16 20:44               ` Daniel Micay
2016-12-16 20:44                 ` [kernel-hardening] " Daniel Micay
2016-12-16 21:09                 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-17 15:21               ` George Spelvin
2016-12-17 15:21                 ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-19 14:14                 ` David Laight
2016-12-19 14:14                   ` [kernel-hardening] " David Laight
2016-12-19 14:14                   ` David Laight
2016-12-19 18:10                   ` George Spelvin
2016-12-19 18:10                     ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-19 20:18                     ` Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-19 20:18                       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-16  2:14   ` kbuild test robot
2016-12-16  2:14     ` [kernel-hardening] " kbuild test robot
2016-12-17 14:55   ` Jeffrey Walton
2016-12-17 14:55     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jeffrey Walton
2016-12-19 17:08     ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-19 17:08       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-19 17:19       ` Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-19 17:19         ` [kernel-hardening] " Jean-Philippe Aumasson
2016-12-15 20:30 ` [PATCH v5 2/4] siphash: add Nu{32,64} helpers Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30   ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 10:39   ` David Laight
2016-12-16 10:39     ` [kernel-hardening] " David Laight
2016-12-16 10:39     ` David Laight
2016-12-16 15:44     ` George Spelvin
2016-12-16 15:44       ` [kernel-hardening] " George Spelvin
2016-12-15 20:30 ` [PATCH v5 3/4] secure_seq: use SipHash in place of MD5 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30   ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  9:59   ` David Laight
2016-12-16  9:59     ` [kernel-hardening] " David Laight
2016-12-16  9:59     ` David Laight
2016-12-16 15:57     ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 15:57       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 15:57       ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30 ` [PATCH v5 4/4] random: " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-15 20:30   ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03 ` [PATCH v6 0/5] The SipHash Patchset Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [PATCH v6 1/5] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [PATCH v6 2/5] secure_seq: use SipHash in place of MD5 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [PATCH v6 3/5] random: " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 21:31     ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16 21:31       ` [kernel-hardening] " Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16 21:31       ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [PATCH v6 4/5] md5: remove from lib and only live in crypto Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03   ` [PATCH v6 5/5] syncookies: use SipHash in place of SHA1 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16  3:03     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02   ` [PATCH v7 0/6] The SipHash Patchset Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 1/6] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  1:40       ` Stephen Hemminger
2016-12-22  1:40         ` [kernel-hardening] " Stephen Hemminger
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 2/6] secure_seq: use SipHash in place of MD5 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 3/6] random: " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:13       ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:13         ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:42       ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-21 23:42         ` [kernel-hardening] " Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-21 23:42         ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-22  2:07         ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22  2:07           ` [kernel-hardening] " Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22  2:07           ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22  2:09           ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-22  2:09             ` [kernel-hardening] " Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-22  2:09             ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-12-22  2:49           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  2:49             ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  2:49             ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  3:12             ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  3:12               ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  3:12               ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  5:41             ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22  5:41               ` [kernel-hardening] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22  6:03               ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:58                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22 15:58                   ` [kernel-hardening] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22 16:16                   ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 16:16                     ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 16:30                     ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22 16:36                       ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 12:47               ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 12:47                 ` [kernel-hardening] " Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 13:10                 ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:05                   ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 15:12                     ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:29                       ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:33                         ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 15:33                           ` [kernel-hardening] " Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 15:41                           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:51                             ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 15:51                               ` [kernel-hardening] " Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 15:53                               ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 15:54                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22 15:54                     ` [kernel-hardening] " Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22 18:08                     ` Hannes Frederic Sowa
2016-12-22 18:13                       ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 18:13                         ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22 19:50                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2016-12-22  2:31         ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  2:31           ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  2:31           ` Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 4/6] md5: remove from lib and only live in crypto Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 5/6] syncookies: use SipHash in place of SHA1 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02     ` [PATCH v7 6/6] siphash: implement HalfSipHash1-3 for hash tables Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-21 23:02       ` [kernel-hardening] " Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-22  0:46       ` Andi Kleen
2016-12-22  0:46         ` [kernel-hardening] " Andi Kleen
2016-12-16 20:43 [PATCH v5 1/4] siphash: add cryptographically secure PRF Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 20:49 Jason A. Donenfeld
2016-12-16 21:25 ` George Spelvin

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