Re: Firewire Phase24 Motu help

Re: Firewire Phase24 Motu help

[Takashi Sakamoto]

Hi,

(C.C.ed to administrator of alsa-devel mailing list)

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:40:06PM +0100, M. Armsby wrote:
>    Hi Takashi,
>    I'm writing direct because I cannot seem to get a post on AlsaDevel
>    list.

I've realized your two posts, but no reaction since they have no message
body:

* Firewire ALSA Motu and Phase24
    * https://lore.kernel.org/alsa-devel/sokos1-r6xj933yn42y-hmy3gsrfgsma-mnwe9a-cahiug-3btbiljo1il7-8lhisz-trzq63b9es27-41z6o2wylkgf-tjvaeo3olqkz-elr571-us6u4977mlo1-p2gxkncmroem-foujcu-jg85lg-sqi612.1674640678660@email.android.com/
* Firewire Motu ALSA (Re-post)
    * https://lore.kernel.org/alsa-devel/v6inx6-fwmr0r-kvajcd-kfs8u9l6m2qn2cnogd-2odpkz-d7vadu94fw76-iv1ohfsnh0nxdhq3hl-irmx6t-3alyitjtt3oq-m2jt5z8uktj3-1khriq-w6pr0c-bitxl26qa5mx-sc4dcno22ycq-2x7a4f.1674740730928@email.android.com/

Jaroslav, would I ask your opinion for the problem which perhaps dropped
the message body from his messages?

>    I need to repair my two Phase X24 (defekt caps?) and I'm having
>    problems with Traveler and other Motu interfaces on Linux.
>    Thanks for any hints or where I should post.
>    Here's  a copy of my post:

>    Hello everyone!
>    Thank you for all the hard work on this.
>    Especially Mr. Takashi Sakamoto.
>    I'm an experienced studio engineer and was a Beta tester for Samplitude
>    for years.
>    Not a programmer and have very little experience with Linux.
>    So please excuse me blundering in on this professional programmer forum
>    but I'm hoping my experience will help somehow to find bugs. I'll
>    provide any information I can or test following instructions.
>    I really would love to completely change over to Linux but I need
>    reliable drivers.
>    How can I help?
>    Here's my experience so far.

>    Around November I started testing Linux for audio as I have
>    occasionally over the last years. I was pleased to find Manjaro and
>    Sparky would detect Traveler Mk1 and Mk3 and to run so efficiently
>    compared to Win10.
>    But things would freeze.
>    Reaper has a long standing Midi bug so it was difficult at first to see
>    why my laptop would freeze on occasion.  I dissabled hardware midi in
>    the software.
>    Then I updated Sparky beginning of December and to my surprise Firewire
>    didn't work anymore. The Firewire stack must have been removed.
>    I use:
>    Dell Laptops 4310, 6510, M4800
>    Tested platforms Ardour and Reaper using Pianoteq 8
>    No JACK
>    Manjaro Kernel from 6.0 rc4? and 6.1.1 work for a limited time.
>    Sparky only works with special kernels Xanmod1 6.1.7-x64v2 but the
>    audio is completely distorted.
>    CachyOS Kernel 6.2 rc4 sounds good.
>    Common problem is freezing or loosing audio. Ardour is less sensitive
>    than Reaper but Reaper is far more efficient on CPU
>    (20% compared to 90%and more with one instance of Pianoteq 7 or 8)
>    Motu Traveler MK3 and MK1 wrong channel assignment from 1+2 (3+4 are
>    actually 1+2) and freezing or just loosing audio.
>    Motu 896Mk3 Hybrid not recognised in firewire or USB mode.
>    Shame cause its the best.
>    Motu 8pre working similarly.
>    Phase 24 working much better but still freezes or looses audio after
>    long period.
>    Tested in Ardour and Reaper.
>    I hope that's not too much at once.
>    Martin Armsby
>    M. Armsby

Thanks for the report including many issues. I apologize to trouble you.
In my opinion, the issues are not so easy since each application uses ALSA
PCM device by slightly different ways. So we need to investigate the
issue step by step to take relevant longer time than easy issues.

Before discussing about the issue, I need to ask a help about MOTU
devices. As you realized, 896 mk3 is neither supported yet, FireWire only
nor Hybrid, in IEEE 1394 bus nor Universal Serial Bus. For example, you
can see no entry for the device in module device table[1] in the file
which consists of snd-firewire-motu driver.

The reason is apparent; no one provides information enough to support
it. Then I would like you to help me to integrate for it in the case in
IEEE 1394 bus.

I maintain a remote repository for my collection of configuration ROM
image which includes identity information of each node in IEEE 1394 bus[2].
The information is useful both to make the entry of module device table
and to make hardware database[3] in systemd project.

When 896 mk3 Hybrid is connected to IEEE 1394 bus and only connected to
the bus, Linux FireWire subsystem detects it as '/dev/fw1'. Then the
rom image is exported to an node on sysfs. You can retrieve the content
by the command line below:

$ cat /sys/bus/firewire/devices/fw1/config_rom > motu-896mk3hybrid.img

If retrieved successfully, please send it to me. I don't mind to receive
it to private message, mailing list, any upload services.

[1] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/sound/firewire/motu/motu.c#n162
[2] https://github.com/takaswie/am-config-roms
[3] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/main/hwdb.d/80-ieee1394-unit-function.hwdb


Thanks

Takashi Sakamoto

Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[Martin Armsby on GMX]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6059 bytes --]


On 30.01.2023 14:19, Takashi Sakamoto wrote:
> Hi,
>
> (C.C.ed to administrator of alsa-devel mailing list)
>
> On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 12:40:06PM +0100, M. Armsby wrote:
>>     Hi Takashi,
>>     I'm writing direct because I cannot seem to get a post on AlsaDevel
>>     list.
> I've realized your two posts, but no reaction since they have no message
> body:
>
> * Firewire ALSA Motu and Phase24
>      * https://lore.kernel.org/alsa-devel/sokos1-r6xj933yn42y-hmy3gsrfgsma-mnwe9a-cahiug-3btbiljo1il7-8lhisz-trzq63b9es27-41z6o2wylkgf-tjvaeo3olqkz-elr571-us6u4977mlo1-p2gxkncmroem-foujcu-jg85lg-sqi612.1674640678660@email.android.com/
> * Firewire Motu ALSA (Re-post)
>      * https://lore.kernel.org/alsa-devel/v6inx6-fwmr0r-kvajcd-kfs8u9l6m2qn2cnogd-2odpkz-d7vadu94fw76-iv1ohfsnh0nxdhq3hl-irmx6t-3alyitjtt3oq-m2jt5z8uktj3-1khriq-w6pr0c-bitxl26qa5mx-sc4dcno22ycq-2x7a4f.1674740730928@email.android.com/
>
> Jaroslav, would I ask your opinion for the problem which perhaps dropped
> the message body from his messages?
>
>>     I need to repair my two Phase X24 (defekt caps?) and I'm having
>>     problems with Traveler and other Motu interfaces on Linux.
>>     Thanks for any hints or where I should post.
>>     Here's  a copy of my post:
>>     Hello everyone!
>>     Thank you for all the hard work on this.
>>     Especially Mr. Takashi Sakamoto.
>>     I'm an experienced studio engineer and was a Beta tester for Samplitude
>>     for years.
>>     Not a programmer and have very little experience with Linux.
>>     So please excuse me blundering in on this professional programmer forum
>>     but I'm hoping my experience will help somehow to find bugs. I'll
>>     provide any information I can or test following instructions.
>>     I really would love to completely change over to Linux but I need
>>     reliable drivers.
>>     How can I help?
>>     Here's my experience so far.
>>     Around November I started testing Linux for audio as I have
>>     occasionally over the last years. I was pleased to find Manjaro and
>>     Sparky would detect Traveler Mk1 and Mk3 and to run so efficiently
>>     compared to Win10.
>>     But things would freeze.
>>     Reaper has a long standing Midi bug so it was difficult at first to see
>>     why my laptop would freeze on occasion.  I dissabled hardware midi in
>>     the software.
>>     Then I updated Sparky beginning of December and to my surprise Firewire
>>     didn't work anymore. The Firewire stack must have been removed.
>>     I use:
>>     Dell Laptops 4310, 6510, M4800
>>     Tested platforms Ardour and Reaper using Pianoteq 8
>>     No JACK
>>     Manjaro Kernel from 6.0 rc4? and 6.1.1 work for a limited time.
>>     Sparky only works with special kernels Xanmod1 6.1.7-x64v2 but the
>>     audio is completely distorted.
>>     CachyOS Kernel 6.2 rc4 sounds good.
>>     Common problem is freezing or loosing audio. Ardour is less sensitive
>>     than Reaper but Reaper is far more efficient on CPU
>>     (20% compared to 90%and more with one instance of Pianoteq 7 or 8)
>>     Motu Traveler MK3 and MK1 wrong channel assignment from 1+2 (3+4 are
>>     actually 1+2) and freezing or just loosing audio.
>>     Motu 896Mk3 Hybrid not recognised in firewire or USB mode.
>>     Shame cause its the best.
>>     Motu 8pre working similarly.
>>     Phase 24 working much better but still freezes or looses audio after
>>     long period.
>>     Tested in Ardour and Reaper.
>>     I hope that's not too much at once.
>>     Martin Armsby
>>     M. Armsby
> Thanks for the report including many issues. I apologize to trouble you.
> In my opinion, the issues are not so easy since each application uses ALSA
> PCM device by slightly different ways. So we need to investigate the
> issue step by step to take relevant longer time than easy issues.
>
> Before discussing about the issue, I need to ask a help about MOTU
> devices. As you realized, 896 mk3 is neither supported yet, FireWire only
> nor Hybrid, in IEEE 1394 bus nor Universal Serial Bus. For example, you
> can see no entry for the device in module device table[1] in the file
> which consists of snd-firewire-motu driver.
>
> The reason is apparent; no one provides information enough to support
> it. Then I would like you to help me to integrate for it in the case in
> IEEE 1394 bus.
>
> I maintain a remote repository for my collection of configuration ROM
> image which includes identity information of each node in IEEE 1394 bus[2].
> The information is useful both to make the entry of module device table
> and to make hardware database[3] in systemd project.
>
> When 896 mk3 Hybrid is connected to IEEE 1394 bus and only connected to
> the bus, Linux FireWire subsystem detects it as '/dev/fw1'. Then the
> rom image is exported to an node on sysfs. You can retrieve the content
> by the command line below:
>
> $ cat /sys/bus/firewire/devices/fw1/config_rom > motu-896mk3hybrid.img
>
> If retrieved successfully, please send it to me. I don't mind to receive
> it to private message, mailing list, any upload services.
>
> [1] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/sound/firewire/motu/motu.c#n162
> [2] https://github.com/takaswie/am-config-roms
> [3] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/main/hwdb.d/80-ieee1394-unit-function.hwdb
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Takashi Sakamoto
>
Ok, Im pleased to help with the drivers for Motu 896 Mk3 Hybrid
I followed your instruction and dumped an .img
Just for comparison I also dumped an .img for Traveler Mk1
These are both in the zip file - (or how would ou like it)
The img seems ver small - I hope it's usefull :)

BTW
Manjaro update with Kernel 6.2.Rc6 is running very well with Terratec
Phase24 and both Motu Travelers.
Not perfeclty but I was able (for the first time) to edit productions
using Reaper for over an hour with no problem!

Note:
Traveler have wrong output numbering.

Cheers,

Martin

[-- Attachment #2: Motu-img.7z --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 301 bytes --]

Re: Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[Takashi Sakamoto]

Hi,

On Sun, Feb 05, 2023 at 12:54:38PM +0100, Martin Armsby on GMX wrote:
> On 30.01.2023 14:19, Takashi Sakamoto wrote:
> > Jaroslav, would I ask your opinion for the problem which perhaps dropped
> > the message body from his messages?

Now his message is successfully blasted to subscribers. Thanks.

> Ok, Im pleased to help with the drivers for Motu 896 Mk3 Hybrid
> I followed your instruction and dumped an .img
> Just for comparison I also dumped an .img for Traveler Mk1
> These are both in the zip file - (or how would ou like it)
> The img seems ver small - I hope it's usefull :)
 
Thanks. I pushed it to my public repository for the collection[1].

Additionally, I filed a merge request to systemd project for the
hardware database[2]:

> BTW
> Manjaro update with Kernel 6.2.Rc6 is running very well with Terratec
> Phase24 and both Motu Travelers.
> Not perfeclty but I was able (for the first time) to edit productions
> using Reaper for over an hour with no problem!
> 
> Note:
> Traveler have wrong output numbering.

I guess that you mentioned about the difference between the contents
of attached 'motu-896mk3hybrid.img' and 'ma_test_traveler.img'. If not,
would I ask your further opinion about the 'output numbering' so that
I can figure out it.

If it was the mapping of PCM channels, it would come from the
specification of MOTU protocol. As long as I know, the second generation
of MOTU FireWire series, the first two channels in playback PCM frame
are for headphone output 1 and 2 (if exists). The channels for analog
outputs, for main outputs (if exists), for S/PDIF outputs (if exists),
for ADAT outputs (if exists) follow to them in the order.

Well, if supporting MOTU 896 mk3 hybrid, we need to investigate the
format of packet content. You can see the format table in
'sound/firewire/motu/motu-protocol-v3.c'[3]. Unfortunately, I have never
had chance to access to the real hardware, so it would be helpful to me
that you investigate it on behalf of me. But it consumes your time. If
you are willing to help, I'm pleased to work for it with you.

[1] https://github.com/takaswie/am-config-roms
[2] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/26319
[3] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/sound/firewire/motu/motu-protocol-v3.c


Regards

Takashi Sakamoto

Re:Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[M. Armsby]

Re: Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[Takashi Sakamoto]

Hi,

On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 06:30:44PM +0100, M. Armsby wrote:
> Hi there Takashi,
> 
> please send me your instructions.
> 
> I will do everything to get these MOTU devices working properly.
 
Okay. As a first step, would I ask you to build `linux-firewire-utils`?

 * https://github.com/cladisch/linux-firewire-utils

In the top level of directory, execute below commands:

$ autoreconf -i
$ ./configure
$ make

When building successfully, you can find `firewire-request` in `src`
directory. It is useful to read the status of device and required for
our investigation.

Before building, I think you need to install some package required for
the work (e.g. compiler), but I'm not Manjaro user so contact to Manjaro
user to ask it...

> The problem with device allocation is this:
> 
> Ardour and Reaper see the ALSA driver and automatically choose 1+2
> for main stereo out.
> 
> But - there is no connection.
> 
> If I choose 3+4 then Motu hardware actually gets sound output on 1+2
> 
> That means all Motu outs are shifted by 2 in the Linux protocol.
> 
> This is true for Traveler MK1 and MK3 so I assume it is an error in
> all snd_motu_spec
> 
> I made a short video demonstrating this.
> 
> https://www.transfernow.net/dl/20230206jG0fet84/OFRBRajr

Thanks for your taking and uploading the video.

The below figure illustrates your cases:

 ++======================++    +-------+    ++===============++
 ||       Traveler       ||    | frame |    ||  Application  ||
 ||                      ||    |       |    ||               ||
 || headphone output 1/2 || <- |  0/1  | <- ||  Output 1/2   ||
 || analog output 1/2    || <- |  2/3  | <- ||  Output 3/4   ||
 || analog output 3/4    || <- |  4/5  | <- ||  Output 5/6   ||
 || analog output 5/6    || <- |  6/7  | <- ||  Output 7/8   ||
 || analog output 7/8    || <- |  8/9  | <- ||  Output 9/10  ||
 || AES/EBU (XLR) 1/2    || <- | 10/11 | <- ||  Output 11/12 ||
 || S/PDIF (opt) 1/2     || <- | 12/13 | <- ||  Output 13/14 ||
 ++======================++    +-------+    ++===============++

I note that the effective source of headphone output is selectable
between the above 7 pairs. Additionally, when enabling ADAT optical
output, 8 channels are newly added to the frame thus 22 channels are
available in a view of application.

Well, inconveniently to you, the above mapping is expected. ALSA
firewire-motu driver passes no information to the application about
what the channel of frame is assigned to, due to technical reason of
ALSA interface to user space application. As a result, the application
just enumerates audio sample in its order.


Regards

Takashi Sakamoto

Re: Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[Takashi Sakamoto]

Hi,

On Wed, Feb 08, 2023 at 05:00:31PM +0100, M. Armsby wrote:
> > I made a short video demonstrating this.
> >
> > https://www.transfernow.net/dl/20230206jG0fet84/OFRBRajr
> Thanks for your taking and uploading the video.
> The below figure illustrates your cases:
>
> ++======================++    +-------+    ++===============++
> ||       Traveler       ||    | frame |    ||  Application  ||
> ||                      ||    |       |    ||               ||
> || headphone output 1/2 || <- |  0/1  | <- ||  Output 1/2   ||
> || analog output 1/2    || <- |  2/3  | <- ||  Output 3/4   ||
> || analog output 3/4    || <- |  4/5  | <- ||  Output 5/6   ||
> || analog output 5/6    || <- |  6/7  | <- ||  Output 7/8   ||
> || analog output 7/8    || <- |  8/9  | <- ||  Output 9/10  ||
> || AES/EBU (XLR) 1/2    || <- | 10/11 | <- ||  Output 11/12 ||
> || S/PDIF (opt) 1/2     || <- | 12/13 | <- ||  Output 13/14 ||
> ++======================++    +-------+    ++===============++
>
> I note that the effective source of headphone output is selectable
> between the above 7 pairs. Additionally, when enabling ADAT optical
> output, 8 channels are newly added to the frame thus 22 channels are
> available in a view of application.
> Well, inconveniently to you, the above mapping is expected. ALSA
> firewire-motu driver passes no information to the application about
> what the channel of frame is assigned to, due to technical reason of
> ALSA interface to user space application. As a result, the
> application just enumerates audio sample in its order.
>
> ________
>
> I can understand your description but disagree that just because
> it's Linux, all Motu users must deal with false output allocation.
> The first pair should be 1+2 not headphones.
>
> Is it not possible to find a remedy instead.
>
> The Windows driver shows headphones much later in the output
> numbering.

Indeed, it is inconvenient in the view of user. But let us focus on how
to support MOTU 896 mk3 hybrid at present, since the issue includes many
technical topics; each application, drivers in kernel, libraries, and
interface between them.

> See Pictures taken from Reaper in Windows 10

Would I ask you to avoid attaching pictures to open mailing list? The
message with many files is easily judged as spam message.


Regards

Takashi Sakamoto

Re:Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[M. Armsby]

   Ok, sorry for pictures.
   I will try the instructions you gave me in the coming days.
   The Arch system (manjaro) I'm using is the only one I know that uses a
   current Kernels and now runs very well with ALSA Firewire.
   Should I use a better Distro?
   Regards,
   Martin

     Indeed, it is inconvenient in the view of user. But let us focus on
     how
     to support MOTU 896 mk3 hybrid at present, since the issue includes
     many
     technical topics; each application, drivers in kernel, libraries,
     and
     interface between them.
     > See Pictures taken from Reaper in Windows 10
     Would I ask you to avoid attaching pictures to open mailing list?
     The
     message with many files is easily judged as spam message.
     Regards
     Takashi Sakamoto

Re: Motu 896Mk3Hybrid dump

[Takashi Sakamoto]

Hi,

On Thu, Feb 09, 2023 at 01:19:49PM +0100, M. Armsby wrote:
> Ok, sorry for pictures.
> I will try the instructions you gave me in the coming days.
> The Arch system (manjaro) I'm using is the only one I know that uses a
> current Kernels and now runs very well with ALSA Firewire.
> Should I use a better Distro?

ALSA firewire-motu driver has no changes since v5.19 kernel. In theory,
you are free to select which version of kernel as long as using the later
version. Therefore, when selecting Linux distribution, you should take
care of the other items, at least:

 * Preferred version of software is provided; e.g. Ardour
 * Easy access to information about development environment

When building linux-firewire-utils, you need to install GNU Compiler
Collection and GNU Autotools. I think they are available by package
manager even if using Arch Linux or derivative distributions, however
I have never used them. If you find information about them in Arch Wiki
or somewhere, you try to continue using it.

> Indeed, it is inconvenient in the view of user. But let us focus on how
> to support MOTU 896 mk3 hybrid at present, since the issue includes many
> technical topics; each application, drivers in kernel, libraries, and
> interface between them.
>
>> See Pictures taken from Reaper in Windows 10
>
> Would I ask you to avoid attaching pictures to open mailing list?
> The message with many files is easily judged as spam message.

Additionally, HTML message is not favourable, since it is used for the
typical spam message.


Regards

Takashi Sakamoto