[alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Jaroslav Kysela]

Hi all,

	today, all gmail users were unsubscribed from the mailing list, because we 
have users who sends e-mails from domains with the DMARC policy reject (like 
cirrus.com). The mailman counts those bounces and unsubscribe users who do not 
receive those e-mails. The nice explanation is here:

https://www.linuxchix.org/content/mailing-list-changes

	I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the mailman config to 
"Munge From" like in the above example, but it will mean that From: will be 
altered (see the explanation).

	Another option is to disable the bounce check in mailman, but it will cause 
that the "dead" subscribers are not detected anymore.

	Any opinions on this?

					Jaroslav

SMTP error:

(host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.73.26] said: 550-5.7.26 
Unauthenticated email from cirrus.com is not accepted due to domain's 
550-5.7.26 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of cirrus.com domain 
550-5.7.26 if this was a legitimate mail. Please visit 550-5.7.26 
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to learn about the 450 4.7.26 
DMARC initiative. m14si10079981ljg.84 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command))

DMARC settings for cirrus.com:

v=DMARC1; p=reject; 
fo=1;rua=mailto:dmarc_rua@emaildefense.proofpoint.com;ruf=mailto:dmarc_ruf@emaildefense.proofpoint.com

-- 
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Sound Maintainer; ALSA Project; Red Hat, Inc.
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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Takashi Iwai]

On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:46:22 +0100,
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> 	today, all gmail users were unsubscribed from the mailing
> list, because we have users who sends e-mails from domains with the
> DMARC policy reject (like cirrus.com). The mailman counts those
> bounces and unsubscribe users who do not receive those e-mails. The
> nice explanation is here:
> 
> https://www.linuxchix.org/content/mailing-list-changes
> 
> 	I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the
> mailman config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it will
> mean that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
> 
> 	Another option is to disable the bounce check in mailman, but
> it will cause that the "dead" subscribers are not detected anymore.
> 
> 	Any opinions on this?

If the number of such dead subscribers isn't too rapidly growing, the
manual bounce check and unsubscribing would work?


Takashi

> 
> 					Jaroslav
> 
> SMTP error:
> 
> (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.73.26] said: 550-5.7.26
> Unauthenticated email from cirrus.com is not accepted due to domain's
> 550-5.7.26 DMARC policy. Please contact the administrator of
> cirrus.com domain 550-5.7.26 if this was a legitimate mail. Please
> visit 550-5.7.26 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/2451690 to
> learn about the 450 4.7.26 DMARC initiative. m14si10079981ljg.84 -
> gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command))
> 
> DMARC settings for cirrus.com:
> 
> v=DMARC1; p=reject;
> fo=1;rua=mailto:dmarc_rua@emaildefense.proofpoint.com;ruf=mailto:dmarc_ruf@emaildefense.proofpoint.com
> 
> -- 
> Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
> Linux Sound Maintainer; ALSA Project; Red Hat, Inc.
> _______________________________________________
> Alsa-devel mailing list
> Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> https://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
> 
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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Lars-Peter Clausen]

On 2/17/20 9:46 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>     today, all gmail users were unsubscribed from the mailing list, 
> because we have users who sends e-mails from domains with the DMARC 
> policy reject (like cirrus.com). The mailman counts those bounces and 
> unsubscribe users who do not receive those e-mails. The nice 
> explanation is here:
>
> https://www.linuxchix.org/content/mailing-list-changes
>
>     I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the mailman 
> config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it will mean 
> that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
>
>     Another option is to disable the bounce check in mailman, but it 
> will cause that the "dead" subscribers are not detected anymore.
>
>     Any opinions on this?
>
>                     Jaroslav 

The way I understand it option 2 would also mean that nobody at a 
service provider that implements DMARC checks on the receiver side would 
receive mail sent to the list by people using a service provider that 
has a reject policy for outgoing mails. E.g. in your example while gmail 
users would not be unsubscribed from the mailing-list, but they still 
wouldn't receive the mails sent from cirrus.com. Which kind of makes the 
mailinglist useless.

The way I understand the option to replace the From: header is that it 
will only happen for those that have a reject policy, for everybody else 
nothing changes. So if the mailinglist is supposed to stay useful for 
those with a reject policy the only option is to rewrite the from header 
for them.

- Lars

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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Charles Keepax]

On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 10:33:55AM +0100, Lars-Peter Clausen wrote:
> On 2/17/20 9:46 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> >    I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the
> >mailman config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it
> >will mean that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
> 
> The way I understand the option to replace the From: header is that
> it will only happen for those that have a reject policy, for
> everybody else nothing changes. So if the mailinglist is supposed to
> stay useful for those with a reject policy the only option is to
> rewrite the from header for them.
> 

Rewriting seems like the best option really, I doubt there
is much chance of me managing to get the IS guys to change
cirrus.com's DMARC policy and I guess we might not be the only
people who cause trouble on this front.

Thanks,
Charles
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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Peter Ujfalusi]

Hi,

On 17/02/2020 13.35, Charles Keepax wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 10:33:55AM +0100, Lars-Peter Clausen wrote:
>> On 2/17/20 9:46 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
>>>     I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the
>>> mailman config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it
>>> will mean that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
>>
>> The way I understand the option to replace the From: header is that
>> it will only happen for those that have a reject policy, for
>> everybody else nothing changes. So if the mailinglist is supposed to
>> stay useful for those with a reject policy the only option is to
>> rewrite the from header for them.
>>
> 
> Rewriting seems like the best option really, I doubt there
> is much chance of me managing to get the IS guys to change
> cirrus.com's DMARC policy and I guess we might not be the only
> people who cause trouble on this front.

ti.com also had issues caused by DMARC policy. We have extensively
nagged our IT department over this and it got resolved?
Probably. Not sure, but I have not been unsubscribed lately from lists
and no complaints on people not receiving my mails... it could be that
they do not indeed receive the mails which makes them happy ;)

> 
> Thanks,
> Charles
> _______________________________________________
> Alsa-devel mailing list
> Alsa-devel@alsa-project.org
> https://mailman.alsa-project.org/mailman/listinfo/alsa-devel
> 

- Péter

Texas Instruments Finland Oy, Porkkalankatu 22, 00180 Helsinki.
Y-tunnus/Business ID: 0615521-4. Kotipaikka/Domicile: Helsinki
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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Lars-Peter Clausen]

On 2/17/20 12:56 PM, Peter Ujfalusi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 17/02/2020 13.35, Charles Keepax wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 10:33:55AM +0100, Lars-Peter Clausen wrote:
>>> On 2/17/20 9:46 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
>>>>      I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the
>>>> mailman config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it
>>>> will mean that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
>>>
>>> The way I understand the option to replace the From: header is that
>>> it will only happen for those that have a reject policy, for
>>> everybody else nothing changes. So if the mailinglist is supposed to
>>> stay useful for those with a reject policy the only option is to
>>> rewrite the from header for them.
>>>
>>
>> Rewriting seems like the best option really, I doubt there
>> is much chance of me managing to get the IS guys to change
>> cirrus.com's DMARC policy and I guess we might not be the only
>> people who cause trouble on this front.
> 
> ti.com also had issues caused by DMARC policy. We have extensively
> nagged our IT department over this and it got resolved?
> Probably. Not sure, but I have not been unsubscribed lately from lists
> and no complaints on people not receiving my mails... it could be that
> they do not indeed receive the mails which makes them happy ;)
Its not that you get unsubscribed, but everybody else who is rejecting 
your mails ;)

_dmarc.ti.com.		3600	IN	TXT 
"v=DMARC1;p=quarantine;sp=none;rua=mailto:dmarc-aggr@ti.com;ruf=mailto:dmarc-for@ti.com;fo=0"

The p=quarantine means that your messages forwarded by the ALSA 
mailinglist will probably go to spam for people using gmail.

Some other mailinglists btw don't have this problem, since they forward 
the signed content of the mail unmodified. But since alsa modifies the 
subject as well as adding the info footer the original signature is no 
longer valid.

- Lars
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Re: [alsa-devel] DMARC & gmail & cirrus.com

[Jaroslav Kysela]

Dne 17. 02. 20 v 13:17 Lars-Peter Clausen napsal(a):
> On 2/17/20 12:56 PM, Peter Ujfalusi wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 17/02/2020 13.35, Charles Keepax wrote:
>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 10:33:55AM +0100, Lars-Peter Clausen wrote:
>>>> On 2/17/20 9:46 AM, Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
>>>>>       I can enable the "Replace the From: header address" in the
>>>>> mailman config to "Munge From" like in the above example, but it
>>>>> will mean that From: will be altered (see the explanation).
>>>>
>>>> The way I understand the option to replace the From: header is that
>>>> it will only happen for those that have a reject policy, for
>>>> everybody else nothing changes. So if the mailinglist is supposed to
>>>> stay useful for those with a reject policy the only option is to
>>>> rewrite the from header for them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Rewriting seems like the best option really, I doubt there
>>> is much chance of me managing to get the IS guys to change
>>> cirrus.com's DMARC policy and I guess we might not be the only
>>> people who cause trouble on this front.
>>
>> ti.com also had issues caused by DMARC policy. We have extensively
>> nagged our IT department over this and it got resolved?
>> Probably. Not sure, but I have not been unsubscribed lately from lists
>> and no complaints on people not receiving my mails... it could be that
>> they do not indeed receive the mails which makes them happy ;)
> Its not that you get unsubscribed, but everybody else who is rejecting
> your mails ;)
> 
> _dmarc.ti.com.		3600	IN	TXT
> "v=DMARC1;p=quarantine;sp=none;rua=mailto:dmarc-aggr@ti.com;ruf=mailto:dmarc-for@ti.com;fo=0"
> 
> The p=quarantine means that your messages forwarded by the ALSA
> mailinglist will probably go to spam for people using gmail.
> 
> Some other mailinglists btw don't have this problem, since they forward
> the signed content of the mail unmodified. But since alsa modifies the
> subject as well as adding the info footer the original signature is no
> longer valid.

I added a filter for the gmail DMARC bounces (so mailman will not receive 
them) and increased the unsubscribe threshold now. But as you noted, it does 
not resolve the issue with the undelivered e-mails from the mailing list 
because the DMARC policy is too strong on the sender's side.

I can remove the subject prefix and footer but are you all ok with this? I 
only hope that mailman will not do other things with message body to break the 
signature. It seems that LKML also does not alter the message contents.

						Jaroslav

-- 
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@perex.cz>
Linux Sound Maintainer; ALSA Project; Red Hat, Inc.
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