Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Coulter, Susan K]

Christoph,

I am the current Chair of the OFA, and therefore do speak for the OFA.
I will be at the LPC and will attend both RDMA sessions.

The OFA’s position on this is not cast in stone.
We realize that OFS has matured and no longer needs the care and feeding it did ~8 years ago.
That said, the OFA believes there is still value in our existence.
( even if you wish we should die a slow death :)

The OFA’s position is that we have some member companies that require dual license in order to offer products and solutions that repackage OFS software on non-Linux OSs.  We are in the process of finding out from those members what bits are critical to that re-packaging.  We also believe, contrary to your understanding, that we cannot force dual license on the entire RDMA kernel subsystem.  

Back in June we began an effort to see if that was possible.  ( that = keeping the kernel bits dual licensed )  Part of that effort was an email I sent you to ask if you would be willing to dual license your recent patches.  You never responded, so I assumed you A.  never saw the email  B.  trashed it with prejudice  C. were too busy to respond.   Hopefully you did not consider that email “bullying”, as I believe I used the words “Any chance you’d be willing” … and just "thought I’d ask”.

We also have considered a clean room approach to re-creating the single licensed patches, but have decided that may not be realistic.

Therefore, we - the OFA - are trying to strike a balance that works for our members and will survive in the real world.
If we die a slow death and the various ULPs that rely on RDMA continue to grow and improve - so be it.
And you can dance on our grave.


==================================================
Susan Coulter / HPC-DES
Network Capability Lead
(505) 667-8425
“Once in a while you get shown the light
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right”  Robert Hunter
==================================================

Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Bart Van Assche]

On 10/06/2016 11:33 AM, Coulter, Susan K wrote:
> The OFA’s position is that we have some member companies that require
 > dual license in order to offer products and solutions that repackage
 > OFS software on non-Linux OSs.  We are in the process of finding out
 > from those members what bits are critical to that re-packaging.  We
 > also believe, contrary to your understanding, that we cannot force dual
 > license on the entire RDMA kernel subsystem.

Hello Susan,

Thank you for having clarified the position of the OFA.

What is not clear to me is what are these products and who are these 
companies? And why do these companies think that they need a BSD 
license? If the Linux RDMA code that is repackaged is built as a 
separate module then they don't need the BSD license. GPL should be 
fine. Run-time loading of kernel modules creates what is considered as a 
collective work under copyright law. The "viral" property of GPL only 
applies to derivative works. A collective work is not the same as a 
derivative work. This is explained in detail by several authors. E.g. 
Lawrence Rosen explains this in his book "Open Source Licensing", 
Software Freedom and Intellectual Property Law, Prentice Hall, 2004 
(http://www.rosenlaw.com/oslbook.htm).

Please note that the above is my own opinion and has not been reviewed 
by the corporate legal team.

Bart.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Thu, Oct 06, 2016 at 01:19:07PM -0700, Bart Van Assche wrote:

> What is not clear to me is what are these products and who are these
> companies? And why do these companies think that they need a BSD
> license? If

Parts of the Linux Kernel RDMA stack have at least been ported to
FreeBSD. https://wiki.freebsd.org/InfiniBand

I speculate parts also found their way into Solaris and AIX..

Jason
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Coulter, Susan K]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8", Size: 2566 bytes --]


> On Oct 6, 2016, at 2:19 PM, Bart Van Assche <bart.vanassche@sandisk.com> wrote:
> 
> On 10/06/2016 11:33 AM, Coulter, Susan K wrote:
>> The OFA’s position is that we have some member companies that require
> > dual license in order to offer products and solutions that repackage
> > OFS software on non-Linux OSs.  We are in the process of finding out
> > from those members what bits are critical to that re-packaging.  We
> > also believe, contrary to your understanding, that we cannot force dual
> > license on the entire RDMA kernel subsystem.
> 
> Hello Susan,
> 
> Thank you for having clarified the position of the OFA.
> 
> What is not clear to me is what are these products and who are these companies?
> And why do these companies think that they need a BSD license? If the Linux RDMA code that is repackaged is built as a separate module then they don't need the BSD license. GPL should be fine. Run-time loading of kernel modules creates what is considered as a collective work under copyright law. The "viral" property of GPL only applies to derivative works. A collective work is not the same as a derivative work. This is explained in detail by several authors. E.g. Lawrence Rosen explains this in his book "Open Source Licensing", Software Freedom and Intellectual Property Law, Prentice Hall, 2004 (http://www.rosenlaw.com/oslbook.htm).

The OFA is currently trying to figure out exactly which of our member companies care about and have a need for dual license.
Until we finish pulling that thread, I cannot answer the question.
The dual license requirement has existed a long time, but it is >possible< it may no longer be needed in many instances.
So far, one company has suggested LGPL would be just fine.

It is my belief (and hope) that when pushed to explain their need, they may find out they don’t need it.
It could be historical precedent and overly cautious management.

Thank you for the book reference - I just bought it.  

> 
> Please note that the above is my own opinion and has not been reviewed by the corporate legal team.

Me too.  :)

> 
> Bart.

==================================================
Susan Coulter / HPC-DES
Network Capability Lead
(505) 667-8425
“Once in a while you get shown the light
    In the strangest of places if you look at it right”  Robert Hunter
==================================================







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RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

We have two days dedicated to meetings about RDMA technology

- RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November

	Meeting in Sweeney AB from 9am till 5pm.
	See https://www.linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/schedule

	This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
	Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.

	Sessions:

		 Implementing a new Linux RDMA provider		Knut Omang
		 New IOCTL ABI					Matan Barak
		 Consolidation of RDMA User-space code		Jason Gunthorpe
		 Debuggability and Tracing			Leon Romanovsky
		 Integration with other subsystems		Leon Romanovsky
		 Lunch Break
		 Containers and RDMA				Liran Liss
		 New Fabrics					Ira Weiny
		 Future and Roadmap for RDMA			Doug Ledford
		 User Mode Ethernet Verbs			Tzahi Oved
		 Dual Licensing					Susan Coulter

	Note that there are some speakers who have not filled out the speakers profile
	and some abstract needs to be filled out. Those list me as a speaker until
	the time that we can put the information about the real speaker in there.

- RDMA Summit on Saturday the 5th of November

	This event will be held at

	Hilton Santa Fe
	100 Sandoval St.
	Santa Fe, NM 87501
	Phone: (505)988-2811

	Meeting in the Canyon Ballroom 9am till 4pm.

	This event is sponsored by the Open Fabrics Alliance and will be
	open to all

The workshop will be focusing more on the technical topics (some
of which could be carried over to Saturday if necessary because we have
more time then. We will summarize what happened on Tuesday for those who
were not able to participate earlier.

Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime

	9am	Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
	10am	Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
	11am	Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter

	1pm	Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
	2pm	Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network stack - Christoph
	3pm	Open Discussion/Reserve Session	- TBD
	4pm	Closing Session	- TBD


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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Or Gerlitz]

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> - RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November
>         Meeting in Sweeney AB from 9am till 5pm.
>         See https://www.linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/schedule
>         This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
>         Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.

isn't that open to all LPC attendees? didn't follow on the invitation
requirement.. it's part of LPC
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016, Or Gerlitz wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > - RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November
> >         Meeting in Sweeney AB from 9am till 5pm.
> >         See https://www.linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/schedule
> >         This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
> >         Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.
>
> isn't that open to all LPC attendees? didn't follow on the invitation
> requirement.. it's part of LPC
>

If you were invited to the KS or LPC then you can attend the RDMA
workshop.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Or Gerlitz]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> If you were invited to the KS or LPC then you can attend the RDMA
> workshop.

AFAIK LPC is by registration, not by invitation, so all LPC attendees
can come, right?
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016, Or Gerlitz wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:49 AM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > If you were invited to the KS or LPC then you can attend the RDMA
> > workshop.
>
> AFAIK LPC is by registration, not by invitation, so all LPC attendees
> can come, right?
>

Correct. There was a limit on the number of registrations and a number of
additional spots were available with a special inviate.

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
>
> 	9am	Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
> 	10am	Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
> 	11am	Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
>
> 	1pm	Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
> 	2pm	Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network stack - Christoph
> 	3pm	Open Discussion/Reserve Session	- TBD
> 	4pm	Closing Session	- TBD

Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think that
is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on Friday on
this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like to have this
issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can rearrange times for the
other presentations. I could skip some of my sessions if necessary and we
have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at the end anyways. I hope that is
agreeable to everyone?

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Fleck, John]

Is there a kernel tree with the patches applied?

John

On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

>> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
>> 
>>    9am    Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
>>    10am    Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
>>    11am    Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
>> 
>>    1pm    Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
>>    2pm    Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network stack - Christoph
>>    3pm    Open Discussion/Reserve Session    - TBD
>>    4pm    Closing Session    - TBD
> 
> Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think that
> is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on Friday on
> this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like to have this
> issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can rearrange times for the
> other presentations. I could skip some of my sessions if necessary and we
> have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at the end anyways. I hope that is
> agreeable to everyone?
> 
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Doug Ledford]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1519 bytes --]

On 11/3/16 3:27 PM, Fleck, John wrote:
> Is there a kernel tree with the patches applied?

No.  I haven't seen the revised version with CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL
wrapping the new changes posted yet.  Did I miss them?

> John
> 
> On Nov 3, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>>> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
>>>
>>>    9am    Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
>>>    10am    Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
>>>    11am    Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
>>>
>>>    1pm    Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
>>>    2pm    Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network stack - Christoph
>>>    3pm    Open Discussion/Reserve Session    - TBD
>>>    4pm    Closing Session    - TBD
>>
>> Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think that
>> is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on Friday on
>> this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like to have this
>> issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can rearrange times for the
>> other presentations. I could skip some of my sessions if necessary and we
>> have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at the end anyways. I hope that is
>> agreeable to everyone?
>>


-- 
Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>    GPG Key ID: 0E572FDD
  Red Hat, Inc.
  100 E. Davie St
  Raleigh, NC 27601 USA


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Doug Ledford]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1198 bytes --]

On 11/3/16 2:49 PM, Christoph Lameter wrote:
>> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
>>
>> 	9am	Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
>> 	10am	Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
>> 	11am	Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
>>
>> 	1pm	Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
>> 	2pm	Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network stack - Christoph
>> 	3pm	Open Discussion/Reserve Session	- TBD
>> 	4pm	Closing Session	- TBD
> 
> Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think that
> is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on Friday on
> this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like to have this
> issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can rearrange times for the
> other presentations. I could skip some of my sessions if necessary and we
> have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at the end anyways. I hope that is
> agreeable to everyone?
> 

I'm agreeable with that.

-- 
Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>    GPG Key ID: 0E572FDD
  Red Hat, Inc.
  100 E. Davie St
  Raleigh, NC 27601 USA


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 907 bytes --]

RE: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Liran Liss]

Matan told me that he will advertise a git with the latest patches applied by EOD.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Ledford [mailto:dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 3:41 PM
> To: Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>; linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
> Cc: skc-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org; ira.weiny-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; Jason Gunthorpe
> <jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>; john.fleck-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; leon-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org;
> Liran Liss <liranl-VPRAkNaXOzVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>; knut.omang-QHcLZuEGTsvQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org; Matan Barak
> <matanb-VPRAkNaXOzVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
> Subject: Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux
> Plumbers in Santa Fe
> 
> On 11/3/16 2:49 PM, Christoph Lameter wrote:
> >> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
> >>
> >> 	9am	Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
> >> 	10am	Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
> >> 	11am	Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
> >>
> >> 	1pm	Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
> >> 	2pm	Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network
> stack - Christoph
> >> 	3pm	Open Discussion/Reserve Session	- TBD
> >> 	4pm	Closing Session	- TBD
> >
> > Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think
> > that is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on
> > Friday on this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like
> > to have this issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can
> > rearrange times for the other presentations. I could skip some of my
> > sessions if necessary and we have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at
> > the end anyways. I hope that is agreeable to everyone?
> >
> 
> I'm agreeable with that.
> 
> --
> Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>    GPG Key ID: 0E572FDD
>   Red Hat, Inc.
>   100 E. Davie St
>   Raleigh, NC 27601 USA

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Matan Barak]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:54 PM, Liran Liss <liranl-VPRAkNaXOzVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Matan told me that he will advertise a git with the latest patches applied by EOD.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Doug Ledford [mailto:dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 3:41 PM
>> To: Christoph Lameter <cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>; linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
>> Cc: skc-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org; ira.weiny-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; Jason Gunthorpe
>> <jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>; john.fleck-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; leon-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org;
>> Liran Liss <liranl-VPRAkNaXOzVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>; knut.omang-QHcLZuEGTsvQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org; Matan Barak
>> <matanb-VPRAkNaXOzVWk0Htik3J/w@public.gmane.org>
>> Subject: Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux
>> Plumbers in Santa Fe
>>
>> On 11/3/16 2:49 PM, Christoph Lameter wrote:
>> >> Saturday sessions 9am till 4pm. 12-1pm Lunchtime
>> >>
>> >>    9am     Refine TODO list for consolidated library - Jason Gunthorpe
>> >>    10am    Submission process for multi subsystem drivers - Doug Ledford
>> >>    11am    Multicast features and gaps - Christoph Lameter
>> >>
>> >>    1pm     Licensing carryover - Susan/Christoph
>> >>    2pm     Standard network tools, integrating to the regular network
>> stack - Christoph
>> >>    3pm     Open Discussion/Reserve Session - TBD
>> >>    4pm     Closing Session - TBD
>> >
>> > Ok we have an on going conversation regarding the ioctl and I think
>> > that is of high importance. We tried to find a room for a meeting on
>> > Friday on this but we do not have access to a projector. I would like
>> > to have this issue dealt with first on Saturday and then we can
>> > rearrange times for the other presentations. I could skip some of my
>> > sessions if necessary and we have 2 hours that are pretty flexible at
>> > the end anyways. I hope that is agreeable to everyone?
>> >
>>
>> I'm agreeable with that.
>>
>> --
>> Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>    GPG Key ID: 0E572FDD
>>   Red Hat, Inc.
>>   100 E. Davie St
>>   Raleigh, NC 27601 USA
>
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> the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
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I would like to clean the series up a bit and make it bisect-able
before converting it from RFC to actual patches. So it's not just
wrapping with CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL.
In the meantime, you could review the tree in my github:
https://github.com/matanb10/linux branch: abi_rfc_v5

Regards,
Matan
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RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

We now have confirmation about the meetings related to the KS and LPC. The
events will be held at the:

	Hilton Santa Fe
	100 Sandoval St.
	Santa Fe, NM 87501
	Phone: (505)988-2811

We meet specifically on the subject matter of RDMA two days:

- RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November

	Meeting in Sweeney B 9am till 5pm.
	See http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/tracks/609

	This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
	Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.

- RDMA Summit on Saturday the 5th of November

	Meeting in the Canyon Ballroom 9am till 4pm.

	This event is sponsored by the Open Fabrics Alliance and will be
	open to all


We think the workshop could be focusing more on the technical topics (some
of which could be carried over to Saturday if necessary because we have
more time then. The "Summit" would also be including management issues,
long range plans and OFA related material. We will summarize what
happened on Tuesday for those who were not able to participate earlier.

Each day we thought we could cover 6 subjects. 3 in the morning 3 in the
afternoon.

Initial ideas for sessions:

Workshop:
	- New ioctl ABI and issues related to that
	- Consolidated libraries. Closer integration of librdmacm to
		libibverbs etc.
	- Using standard network tools/techniques for IB interfaces.
	- Debuggability and tracing (also can standard tools help here?)
	- State of Multicast support
	- Containers and RDMA

Summit:
	- Licensing (GPL vs. Dual licensed)
	- Integration with other subsystems (GPUs, network, PCI etc ...)
	- Roadmap and future of RDMA
	- Leftover issues and TODO for consolidated library.
	- Submission process for multi-subsystem drivers (f.e ROCE)


Feedback would be appreciated so that we can workout an agenda that is
useful for all participants.

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Hellwig]

> Summit:
> 	- Licensing (GPL vs. Dual licensed)

So we're finally going to bring OFA in front of an anti-trust code
to bring down their silly Dual licensing requirement for their members.
Can't see any other reason why this would be brought up again, as they
obviously can't force anyone else under a dual licensing scheme
requirement for Linux code.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Atchley, Scott]

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 8:45 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
>> Summit:
>> 	- Licensing (GPL vs. Dual licensed)
> 
> So we're finally going to bring OFA in front of an anti-trust code
> to bring down their silly Dual licensing requirement for their members.
> Can't see any other reason why this would be brought up again, as they
> obviously can't force anyone else under a dual licensing scheme
> requirement for Linux code.

What is the purpose of this comment?

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

The point of the session will be to allow communication about the
different viewpoints on the subject matter of Dual Licensing. Maybe we can
come to some agreements that will allow us to move forward in a better way
with this. More communication may also help to clear up a couple of issues
and complaints. I certainly wish that Christoph Hellwig would be there to
talk about his views and also Susan Coulter as representing the OFA point
of view.

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Hellwig]

Could someone elaborate what the OFA position is?  Right now the only
thing I know is that they are a) forcing their members to Dual license
code nd have b) some sort of weird idea that they could also force this
on others in some way.

I personally think that a) is not helpful to the adoption of RDMA
technologies in Linux, and that b) is obviously a complete non-started
as confirmed multiple times, which isn't just my own opinion.

Based on that I really don't understand what the point of this
discussion is, unless OFA really needs help with an internal discussion
to get rid of a).  If Christoph really wants me to help with a) please
do it during Plumbers as I won't be around on Saturday.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Atchley, Scott]

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 4:32 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch-wEGCiKHe2LqWVfeAwA7xHQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> Could someone elaborate what the OFA position is?  Right now the only
> thing I know is that they are a) forcing their members to Dual license
> code nd have b) some sort of weird idea that they could also force this
> on others in some way.

Although I am sitting on the OFA board as the representative of my organization, I do not speak for the OFA. These are my observations:

1. The OFA is an organization to promote the standardization of alternative network technologies. Prior to the OFA, vendors created specialized hardware with specialized software stacks tailored to HPC. Examples include QSnet/Quadrics, GM/Myrinet MX/Myrinet, Cray Portals/SeaStar, Cray GNI/Gemini/Aries, IBM BG[LPQ], etc. The OFA evolved from the InfiniBand/Verbs trade group in order to promote additional technologies (e.g. iWarp, RoCE, PSM, etc).

2. The OFA organization, made up of various members, has rules to govern itself. Most members are also competitors. They cooperate on standards because everyone benefits by avoiding the fragmentation of the prior state of affairs (see item 1). Because they are competitors, changes are difficult and/or slow because people have to build consensus. Other members are consumers, for example the organization I represent, and we want standards and competition. The former allows us to get better products from the latter.

3. The members that contribute the most to the OFA in terms of money, staff time, and code are the vendors. They wrote much of the code that was contributed and they chose dual license, as is their right. I assume (because I do not know) that they did so to avoid writing two (or three) stacks for Linux and non-Linux environments.

4. OFA has a rule that code developed on its behalf be dual-license. They do not _force_ this on members because members decided this or they joined knowing that this was the rule. OFA cannot force anyone to join so therefore they cannot force anyone to adopt a dual-license. As mentioned in item 2, OFA members can modify their rules via an established process. If you want to change the rule, join OFA and convince the members.

5. The only one in this thread trying to force a license of others is not the OFA.

> I personally think that a) is not helpful to the adoption of RDMA
> technologies in Linux, and that b) is obviously a complete non-started
> as confirmed multiple times, which isn't just my own opinion.

If one is not a member, the OFA cannot force anything. I do not see dual-license as a hindrance to Linux kernel use or adoption. Perhaps you can help me understand better.

> Based on that I really don't understand what the point of this
> discussion is, unless OFA really needs help with an internal discussion
> to get rid of a).  If Christoph really wants me to help with a) please
> do it during Plumbers as I won't be around on Saturday.

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Hellwig]

[snipped the marketing BS and getting straight to the point..]

> 5. The only one in this thread trying to force a license of others is not the OFA.

That is not the case.  OFA has been constantly pushing through various
channels to force Dual licensing of RDMA related code contribute to the
Linux kernel.

Can you please confirm on behalf of the OFA board that OFA will stop
bullying Linux kernel contributors or otherwise try to influence
licensing of code contributed to the Linux kernel that has not been
developed by the OFA.

Once we have that sorted out I think we're all in violent agreement.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Atchley, Scott]

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 9:18 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote:
> 
> [snipped the marketing BS and getting straight to the point..]

Not marketing BS. Simple facts on the background of the issues. Do not mischaracterize my remarks.


>> 5. The only one in this thread trying to force a license of others is not the OFA.
> 
> That is not the case.  OFA has been constantly pushing through various
> channels to force Dual licensing of RDMA related code contribute to the
> Linux kernel.
> 
> Can you please confirm on behalf of the OFA board that OFA will stop
> bullying Linux kernel contributors or otherwise try to influence
> licensing of code contributed to the Linux kernel that has not been
> developed by the OFA.
> 
> Once we have that sorted out I think we're all in violent agreement.

As I in my email, I do not speak for OFA or my organization. I am speaking for myself.

The issue is code was added in between the vendors’ Verbs drivers (now called providers?) and the upper layer protocols (ULPs) that is GPL only. The code standardizes common code paths that each ULP previously implemented. Hopefully the code is more stable and a fix there fixes it everywhere. This code allows the ULPs to focus on their protocol-specific behavior. Technically, this is a good thing.

The issue, I believe, from the OFA’s perspective is that code that they mostly developed and contributed  (drivers and ULPs) which is dual-licensed to allow it to be used in non-Linux OSes has been reduced and something critical inserted in between that cannot be used in non-Linux OSes (*BSD or Windows). Thus, there is heartburn.

The OFA cannot change the fact that this code has been accepted in the kernel. The OFA asked that it be dual-licensed and the answer was no. The OFA cannot do anything about that.

AS for bullying Linux kernel contributors, many contributors are vendor employees and, as everywhere, the employer dictates the license for the code produced at company expense. For contributors that are not employees of OFA members, the OFA has no influence or impact, thus no means to bully.

I believe the goal of OFA’s request for dual-licensing of the new code was legitimate from their perspective. I also believe the decision of the developer is his own and no one can force him to change.

I am trying to understand the issue from both points of view. Again, I ask you to help me understand how requesting dual-licensing hurts the adoption of RDMA technology. I can understand the vendor’s concerns about having to write software twice for GPL and non-GPL environments.

Again, I am a user that wants standards that allow innovation and competition. Help me understand.

P.S. I will be neither at the LPC or the RDMA Summit.

P.P.S. Remember, I am only speaking for myself and not the OFA or my employer.

Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Hellwig]

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 01:49:56PM +0000, Atchley, Scott wrote:
> Not marketing BS. Simple facts on the background of the issues. Do not mischaracterize my remarks.

It is.  And so is most of this mail.  If we can't have a useful
technical conversation this is pointless.

What remains from all this backtracking is that your as a board member
(but speaking just for yourself) are perfectly fine with bullying
cotributors to the Linux kernel for no good reason.

Just another reason to ignore OFA as much as possible and make sure we
can get the Linux RDMA stack up to standards, similar to how Microsoft
managed to have a state of the art stack way better than Linux at the
moment but taking things into their own hands and ignoring OFA.

Let OFA continue die a slow death by infighting of it's two main members
and the lack of a clear vision, while we'll make sure RDMA in Linux is
top notch.
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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Jason Gunthorpe]

On Wed, Oct 05, 2016 at 01:49:56PM +0000, Atchley, Scott wrote:

> I am trying to understand the issue from both points of view. Again,
> I ask you to help me understand how requesting dual-licensing hurts
> the adoption of RDMA technology. I can understand the vendor???s
> concerns about having to write software twice for GPL and non-GPL
> environments.

The opposing point of view is that every time an opensource project is
forked or taken propriety by a company the opensource project itself
suffers. (and this is by no means a universal view, but let us
explore it)

A good example of this harm in our community would be opensm. Many
sites are now running a build of 'opensm' that does not come with
source.

>From the OFA perspective, many of the companies using the code outside
Linux are not OFA members, do not contribute financially, and do not
contribute their bugfixes or other code. Yet, they get a 'free ride'
when the OFA encourages Linux-focused member companies to use the dual
license.

I can understand why the OFA adopted this position at the start, but
IMHO, it is time to stop. The OFA should not be spending its limited
resources to benefit the non-Linux community.

Further, it is hard to see why the OFA board should burn what little
good will it has in the Linux community by acting to the benifit of a
nebulous sub-group of non-Linux members (that may not even exist today).

In the end I hope the bylaws will be revised to allow for
GPLv2/LGPLv2-only as a legtimiate license choice for OFA projects.

Jason
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RE: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Weiny, Ira]

Christoph,

I just want to be sure that the Tuesday session at LPC is located at the Community Convention Center:

Sante Fe Community Convention Center
201 W. Marcy Street
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501
United States

Or is that also at the Hilton?

Thanks,
Ira

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christoph Lameter [mailto:cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:16 AM
> To: linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
> Cc: Weiny, Ira <ira.weiny-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>; Jason Gunthorpe
> <jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>; Fleck, John <john.fleck-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>;
> leon-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org; Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; skc-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org;
> shewa-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org
> Subject: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux
> Plumbers in Santa Fe
> 
> We now have confirmation about the meetings related to the KS and LPC.
> The events will be held at the:
> 
> 	Hilton Santa Fe
> 	100 Sandoval St.
> 	Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 	Phone: (505)988-2811
> 
> We meet specifically on the subject matter of RDMA two days:
> 
> - RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November
> 
> 	Meeting in Sweeney B 9am till 5pm.
> 	See
> http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/tracks/609
> 
> 	This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
> 	Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.
> 
> - RDMA Summit on Saturday the 5th of November
> 
> 	Meeting in the Canyon Ballroom 9am till 4pm.
> 
> 	This event is sponsored by the Open Fabrics Alliance and will be
> 	open to all
> 
> 
> We think the workshop could be focusing more on the technical topics (some
> of which could be carried over to Saturday if necessary because we have
> more time then. The "Summit" would also be including management issues,
> long range plans and OFA related material. We will summarize what
> happened on Tuesday for those who were not able to participate earlier.
> 
> Each day we thought we could cover 6 subjects. 3 in the morning 3 in the
> afternoon.
> 
> Initial ideas for sessions:
> 
> Workshop:
> 	- New ioctl ABI and issues related to that
> 	- Consolidated libraries. Closer integration of librdmacm to
> 		libibverbs etc.
> 	- Using standard network tools/techniques for IB interfaces.
> 	- Debuggability and tracing (also can standard tools help here?)
> 	- State of Multicast support
> 	- Containers and RDMA
> 
> Summit:
> 	- Licensing (GPL vs. Dual licensed)
> 	- Integration with other subsystems (GPUs, network, PCI etc ...)
> 	- Roadmap and future of RDMA
> 	- Leftover issues and TODO for consolidated library.
> 	- Submission process for multi-subsystem drivers (f.e ROCE)
> 
> 
> Feedback would be appreciated so that we can workout an agenda that is
> useful for all participants.

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Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Leon Romanovsky]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3301 bytes --]

On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 06:36:56PM +0000, Weiny, Ira wrote:
> Christoph,
>
> I just want to be sure that the Tuesday session at LPC is located at the Community Convention Center:
>
> Sante Fe Community Convention Center
> 201 W. Marcy Street
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501
> United States
>
> Or is that also at the Hilton?

It should be at the LPC location.
https://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/schedule#day_2016_11_01
https://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/tracks/609


>
> Thanks,
> Ira
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christoph Lameter [mailto:cl-vYTEC60ixJUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:16 AM
> > To: linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
> > Cc: Weiny, Ira <ira.weiny-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>; Jason Gunthorpe
> > <jgunthorpe-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>; Fleck, John <john.fleck-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>;
> > leon-DgEjT+Ai2ygdnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org; Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>; skc-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org;
> > shewa-YOWKrPYUwWM@public.gmane.org
> > Subject: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux
> > Plumbers in Santa Fe
> >
> > We now have confirmation about the meetings related to the KS and LPC.
> > The events will be held at the:
> >
> > 	Hilton Santa Fe
> > 	100 Sandoval St.
> > 	Santa Fe, NM 87501
> > 	Phone: (505)988-2811
> >
> > We meet specifically on the subject matter of RDMA two days:
> >
> > - RDMA workshop on Tuesday, 1st of November
> >
> > 	Meeting in Sweeney B 9am till 5pm.
> > 	See
> > http://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/tracks/609
> >
> > 	This is part of the Kernel Summit and the Linux Plumbers
> > 	Conference. Only open to KS and LPC attendees with an invitation.
> >
> > - RDMA Summit on Saturday the 5th of November
> >
> > 	Meeting in the Canyon Ballroom 9am till 4pm.
> >
> > 	This event is sponsored by the Open Fabrics Alliance and will be
> > 	open to all
> >
> >
> > We think the workshop could be focusing more on the technical topics (some
> > of which could be carried over to Saturday if necessary because we have
> > more time then. The "Summit" would also be including management issues,
> > long range plans and OFA related material. We will summarize what
> > happened on Tuesday for those who were not able to participate earlier.
> >
> > Each day we thought we could cover 6 subjects. 3 in the morning 3 in the
> > afternoon.
> >
> > Initial ideas for sessions:
> >
> > Workshop:
> > 	- New ioctl ABI and issues related to that
> > 	- Consolidated libraries. Closer integration of librdmacm to
> > 		libibverbs etc.
> > 	- Using standard network tools/techniques for IB interfaces.
> > 	- Debuggability and tracing (also can standard tools help here?)
> > 	- State of Multicast support
> > 	- Containers and RDMA
> >
> > Summit:
> > 	- Licensing (GPL vs. Dual licensed)
> > 	- Integration with other subsystems (GPUs, network, PCI etc ...)
> > 	- Roadmap and future of RDMA
> > 	- Leftover issues and TODO for consolidated library.
> > 	- Submission process for multi-subsystem drivers (f.e ROCE)
> >
> >
> > Feedback would be appreciated so that we can workout an agenda that is
> > useful for all participants.
>

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 819 bytes --]

Re: RDMA developer gatherings around Kernel Summit and Linux Plumbers in Santa Fe

[Christoph Lameter]

On Wed, 5 Oct 2016, Leon Romanovsky wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 04, 2016 at 06:36:56PM +0000, Weiny, Ira wrote:
> > Christoph,
> >
> > I just want to be sure that the Tuesday session at LPC is located at the Community Convention Center:
> >
> > Sante Fe Community Convention Center
> > 201 W. Marcy Street
> > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87501
> > United States
> >
> > Or is that also at the Hilton?
>
> It should be at the LPC location.
> https://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/schedule#day_2016_11_01
> https://linuxplumbersconf.org/2016/ocw/events/LPC2016/tracks/609

Correct. Sorry did not notice it before. The LPC and thus the RDMA
workshop is at the convention centre.

We are looking for topics that people are interested in discussing and for
volunteers that can lead these discussions. Will give it a few days and
if we do not have enough then we will begin asking key people to take on
certain subjects.

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