From: Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>
To: Bernd Schmidt <bernds_cb1@t-online.de>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Andi Kleen <andi@firstfloor.org>,
David Woodhouse <dwmw2@infradead.org>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Harvey Harrison <harvey.harrison@gmail.com>,
"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>,
Chris Mason <chris.mason@oracle.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com, Gregory Haskins <ghaskins@novell.com>,
Matthew Wilcox <matthew@wil.cx>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-btrfs <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org>,
Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
Nick Piggin <npiggin@suse.de>,
Peter Morreale <pmorreale@novell.com>,
Sven Dietrich <SDietrich@novell.com>,
jh@suse.cz
Subject: Re: gcc inlining heuristics was Re: [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 01:13:45 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20090119001345.GA9880@elte.hu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <496BBE27.2020206@t-online.de>
* Bernd Schmidt <bernds_cb1@t-online.de> wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > But you'll need some background to it:
>
> You paint a somewhat one-sided picture bordering on FUD.
>
> > Type-based aliasing is _stupid_.
>
> Type-based aliasing is simply an application of the language definition,
> and depending on the compiled application and/or target architecture, it
> can be essential for performance.
> [...]
>
> So, to summarize: strict aliasing works for nearly every application
> these days, there's a compiler switch for the rest to turn it off, it
> can be a serious performance improvement, and the compiler warns about
> dangerous constructs. That makes the issue a little less black and
> white than "type based aliasing is stupid".
i did some size measurements. Latest kernel, gcc 4.3.2, x86 defconfig,
vmlinux built with strict-aliasing optimizations and without.
The image sizes are:
text data bss dec hex filename
6997984 1635900 1322376 9956260 97eba4 vmlinux.gcc.-fno-strict-aliasing
6985962 1635884 1322376 9944222 97bc9e vmlinux.gcc.strict-aliasing
that's 0.17% of a size win only.
The cost? More than _300_ new "type-punned" warnings during the kernel
build (3000 altogether, including duplicates that trigger in multiple
object files) - more than _1000_ new warnings (more than 10,000 total) in
an allyesconfig build.
That is a _ton_ of effort for a ~0.1% category win. Often in historic code
that has been working well and now got broken by gcc.
I think this feature has been over-sold while it under-performs. You also
significantly weakened the utility of the C language for lowlevel
hardware-conscious programming as a result (which is the strongest side of
C by far).
Type based aliasing should at most have been an opt-in for code that
cares, not a turned-on-by-default feature for everyone.
You already dismissed concerns in this thread by suggesting that Linux is
just one of many projects, but that way you dismiss 1) the largest OSS
project by linecount 2) one of the most performance-optimized pieces of
OSS software in existence.
I.e. you dismiss what should have been GCC's strongest supporter, ally,
test-field and early prototype tester. A lot of folks in the kernel look
at the assembly level on a daily basis, they run the latest hardware and
they see where GCC messes up. By dismissing Linux you cut yourself off
from a lot of development power, you cut yourself off from a lot of
enthusiasm and you miss out on a lot of dynamism that would naturally help
GCC too.
I.e. almost by definition you cannot possibly be interested in writing the
best compiler on the planet.
Ingo
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-01-19 0:13 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 362+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-12-31 11:28 Btrfs for mainline Chris Mason
2008-12-31 18:45 ` Andrew Morton
2008-12-31 23:19 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 16:37 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-02 18:06 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 19:38 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-03 9:44 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-05 14:14 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 16:43 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-05 10:32 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 13:21 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 14:39 ` generic pagecache to block mapping layer (was Re: Btrfs for mainline) Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 16:37 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 17:10 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-06 17:20 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-02 19:05 ` Btrfs for mainline Andi Kleen
2009-01-02 19:32 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 21:01 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-02 21:35 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 22:26 ` Roland Dreier
2009-01-04 13:28 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-01-04 15:56 ` Ed Tomlinson
2009-01-05 10:07 ` Chris Samuel
2009-01-05 13:18 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 16:33 ` J. Bruce Fields
2009-01-06 22:09 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-03 19:17 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-03 19:50 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-01-03 20:17 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-04 21:52 ` Arnd Bergmann
2009-01-05 14:01 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-03 21:12 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-04 18:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-04 18:41 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-05 14:47 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 16:23 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-05 16:30 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 13:07 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 13:24 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 14:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 11:40 ` [PATCH][RFC]: mutex: adaptive spin Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 12:10 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 12:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 15:01 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-06 13:10 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-06 13:16 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 13:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 14:15 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-06 21:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-06 21:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 22:07 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 22:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 22:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 22:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 0:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 12:03 ` [PATCH -v4][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 14:50 ` Frédéric Weisbecker
2009-01-07 14:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 15:22 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 15:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 15:54 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 16:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 16:57 ` [PATCH -v5][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 20:40 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 20:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 21:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:47 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-07 21:57 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:39 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 22:28 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 22:33 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 22:51 ` Peter W. Morreale
2009-01-07 23:14 ` Peter W. Morreale
2009-01-07 22:56 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 23:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 3:28 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 7:10 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 23:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 3:27 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 3:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 4:00 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 23:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-07 21:28 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:51 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 21:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 22:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 22:18 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 23:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 9:58 ` [PATCH -v6][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 14:18 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 14:33 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 14:46 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 15:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 15:30 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:30 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 16:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 16:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 17:08 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 17:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:03 ` Steven Rostedt
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.1.10.0901081300370.24688@gandalf.stny.rr.com>
2009-01-08 18:14 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 19:17 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:45 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 18:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:27 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:02 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 19:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 17:40 ` Jiri Kosina
2009-01-09 9:28 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-10 23:59 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-01-08 19:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 20:12 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 10:47 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 15:06 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 15:11 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-09 15:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 16:03 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 16:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:44 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 18:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 18:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:33 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 18:41 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 3:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 4:59 ` David Miller
2009-01-09 5:00 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 13:00 ` [patch] measurements, numbers about CONFIG_OPTIMIZE_INLINING=y impact Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 14:03 ` jim owens
2009-01-09 15:35 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 16:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:56 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-10 8:55 ` Chris Samuel
2009-01-09 20:17 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-09 20:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 23:28 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-10 0:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 0:37 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-10 0:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:08 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-10 2:12 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-10 4:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 6:44 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-09 20:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 16:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 16:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:47 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 16:46 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 16:51 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 17:07 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 17:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 17:32 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 17:46 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:28 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 17:47 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:39 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 17:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 18:07 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 18:19 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 18:59 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:13 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 19:21 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:10 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:17 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 19:40 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:32 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:09 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 20:14 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 20:37 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 21:23 ` Theodore Tso
2009-01-09 21:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 20:58 ` Sam Ravnborg
2009-01-09 17:41 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 18:02 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 18:55 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:35 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:29 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 19:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:52 ` Theodore Tso
2009-01-09 22:07 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-09 22:44 ` Andi Kleen
[not found] ` <20090109224410.GQ26290@one.firstfloor.org>
2009-01-09 22:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 22:55 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-09 23:32 ` Sam Ravnborg
2009-01-10 5:29 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-10 5:57 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-11 22:45 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2009-01-09 17:13 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-01-09 15:25 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 19:00 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 1:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 13:37 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 16:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:23 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 16:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 20:41 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 20:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 20:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:34 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 21:41 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:59 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 22:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 22:13 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 22:25 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-10 0:53 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-10 1:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:13 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 23:12 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 23:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:01 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:20 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:08 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-10 1:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 5:03 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-10 5:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 5:57 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-11 0:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-12 1:56 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-12 8:40 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:18 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-10 1:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:41 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-10 3:02 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 12:26 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-11 18:13 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 19:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-11 20:14 ` gcc inlining heuristics was " Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 20:15 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-11 20:34 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 20:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-11 23:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 0:12 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 0:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 0:52 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 1:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-12 18:06 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-12 19:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 19:32 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 19:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-12 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 23:01 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-12 23:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 19:42 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.0901121128080.6528@localhost.localdomain>
2009-01-12 20:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 22:03 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-13 0:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-13 1:30 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-19 0:13 ` Ingo Molnar [this message]
2009-01-19 6:22 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-19 21:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-20 0:51 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-20 12:38 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-20 19:49 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-20 21:05 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-20 21:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-20 22:05 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-21 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-21 8:54 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 8:52 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-21 9:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 9:25 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-21 9:54 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 10:14 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-20 4:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-20 17:43 ` Miguel F Mascarenhas Sousa Filipe
2009-01-12 19:55 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-12 20:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 7:59 ` Hard to debug kernel issues (was Re: [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning) Chris Samuel
2009-01-10 6:44 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 21:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:58 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 21:15 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-08 19:59 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 1:44 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 2:24 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 5:05 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 3:35 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 3:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 6:57 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 6:00 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-09 6:58 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 13:05 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 17:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 22:54 ` [PATCH -v5][RFC]: " Dave Kleikamp
2009-01-07 23:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 2:18 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki
2009-01-08 2:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 2:49 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki
2009-01-08 6:52 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-08 14:24 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 14:45 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 21:37 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 21:35 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-07 17:20 ` [PATCH -v4][RFC]: " Chris Mason
2009-01-07 17:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 18:00 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 3:57 ` [PATCH][RFC]: mutex: adaptive spin Lai Jiangshan
2009-01-07 6:32 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 7:34 ` Lai Jiangshan
2009-01-07 13:35 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-06 22:31 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-06 15:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 16:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 17:02 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:19 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-10 17:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-01-06 13:29 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-06 16:23 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-06 17:08 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-06 17:37 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 18:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 18:20 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 18:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 19:03 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-05 14:34 ` Btrfs for mainline Chris Mason
2009-01-04 8:32 ` Gabor MICSKO
2009-01-05 14:35 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 15:01 ` Tomasz Torcz
2009-01-05 16:30 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-06 19:41 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 9:33 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-07 18:45 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 20:15 ` jim owens
2009-01-11 23:34 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-12 13:58 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-12 15:14 ` Miguel Figueiredo Mascarenhas Sousa Filipe
2009-01-12 15:17 ` Chris Mason
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