From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
To: Richard Guenther <richard.guenther@gmail.com>
Cc: Matthew Wilcox <matthew@wil.cx>, Andi Kleen <andi@firstfloor.org>,
Dirk Hohndel <hohndel@infradead.org>,
"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>,
jim owens <jowens@hp.com>, Chris Mason <chris.mason@oracle.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org>,
paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com, Gregory Haskins <ghaskins@novell.com>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-btrfs <linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org>,
Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
Nick Piggin <npiggin@suse.de>,
Peter Morreale <pmorreale@novell.com>,
Sven Dietrich <SDietrich@novell.com>,
jh@suse.cz
Subject: Re: [patch] measurements, numbers about CONFIG_OPTIMIZE_INLINING=y impact
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:26:16 -0800 (PST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.0901091217530.6528@localhost.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <84fc9c000901091214i16fc74b7q349433a5586d5619@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Richard Guenther wrote:
>
> This is a case where the improved IPA-CP (interprocedural constant
> propagation) of GCC 4.4 may help. In general GCC cannot say how a call
> argument may affect optimization if the function was inlined, so the
> size estimates are done with just looking at the function body, not the
> arguments (well, for GCC 4.4 this is not completely true, there is now
> some "heuristics"). With IPA-CP GCC will clone the function for the
> constant arguments, optimize it and eventually inline it if it is small
> enough. At the moment this happens only if all callers call the
> function with the same constant though (at least I think so).
Ok, that's useless. The whole point is that everybody gives different -
but still constant - arguments.
> The above is definitely one case where using a macro or forced inlining is
> a better idea than to trust a compiler to figure out that it can optimize the
> function to a size suitable for inlining if called with a constant parameter.
.. and forced inlining is what we default to. But that's when "let's try
letting gcc optimize this" fails. And macros get really unreadable, really
quickly.
> > Maybe there was something else going on, and maybe Ingo's tests were off,
> > but this is an example of gcc not inlining WHEN WE TOLD IT TO, and when
> > the function was a single instruction.
> >
> > How can anybody possibly not consider that to be "stupid"?
>
> Because it's a hard problem, it's not stupid to fail here - you didn't tell the
> compiler the function optimizes!
Well, actually we did. It's that "inline" there. That's how things used to
work. It's like "no". It means "no". It doesn't mean "yes, I really want
to s*ck your d*ck, but I'm just screaming no at the top of my lungs
because I think I should do so".
See?
And you do have to realize that Linux has been using gcc for a _loong_
while. You can talk all you want about how "inline" is just a hint, but
the fact is, it didn't use to be. gcc people _made_ it so, and are having
a damn hard time admitting that it's causing problems.
> Experience tells us that people do not know better. Maybe the kernel is
> an exception here
Oh, I can well believe it.
And I don't even think that kernel people get it right nearly enough, but
since for the kernel it can even be a _correctness_ issue, at least if we
get it wrong, everybody sees it.
When _some_ compiler versions get it wrong, it's a disaster.
> But would you still want small functions be inlined even if they are not
> marked inline?
If you can really tell that they are that small, yes.
> They do - just constant arguments are obviously not used for optimizing
> before inlining. Otherwise you'd scream bloody murder at us for all the
> increase in compile-time ;)
A large portion of that has gone away now that everybody uses ccache. And
if you only did it for functions that we _mark_ inline, it wouldn't even
be true. Because those are the ones that presumably really should be
inlined.
So no, I don't believe you. You much too easily dismiss the fact that
we've explicitly marked these functions for inlining, and then you say
"but we were too stupid".
If you cannot afford to do the real job, then trust the user. Don't guess.
Linus
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-01-09 20:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 362+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2008-12-31 11:28 Btrfs for mainline Chris Mason
2008-12-31 18:45 ` Andrew Morton
2008-12-31 23:19 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 16:37 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-02 18:06 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 19:38 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-03 9:44 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-05 14:14 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 16:43 ` Ryusuke Konishi
2009-01-05 10:32 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 13:21 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 14:39 ` generic pagecache to block mapping layer (was Re: Btrfs for mainline) Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 16:37 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 17:10 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-06 17:20 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-02 19:05 ` Btrfs for mainline Andi Kleen
2009-01-02 19:32 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 21:01 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-02 21:35 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-02 22:26 ` Roland Dreier
2009-01-04 13:28 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2009-01-04 15:56 ` Ed Tomlinson
2009-01-05 10:07 ` Chris Samuel
2009-01-05 13:18 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 16:33 ` J. Bruce Fields
2009-01-06 22:09 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-03 19:17 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-03 19:50 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-01-03 20:17 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-04 21:52 ` Arnd Bergmann
2009-01-05 14:01 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-03 21:12 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-04 18:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-04 18:41 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-05 14:47 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-05 16:23 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-05 16:30 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 13:07 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 13:24 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 14:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 11:40 ` [PATCH][RFC]: mutex: adaptive spin Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 12:10 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 12:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 15:01 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-06 13:10 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-06 13:16 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 13:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 14:15 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-06 21:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-06 21:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 22:07 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 22:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 22:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-06 22:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 0:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 23:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 12:03 ` [PATCH -v4][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 14:50 ` Frédéric Weisbecker
2009-01-07 14:58 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 15:22 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 15:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 15:54 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 16:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 16:57 ` [PATCH -v5][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 18:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 20:40 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 20:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:09 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-07 21:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:32 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:47 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-07 21:57 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 21:39 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 22:28 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 22:33 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 22:51 ` Peter W. Morreale
2009-01-07 23:14 ` Peter W. Morreale
2009-01-07 22:56 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 23:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:46 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 3:28 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 7:10 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 23:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 3:27 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 3:38 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 4:00 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-07 23:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-07 21:28 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-07 21:51 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 21:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 22:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 22:18 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 23:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 9:58 ` [PATCH -v6][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 14:18 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 14:33 ` Gregory Haskins
2009-01-08 14:46 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: " Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:09 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 15:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 15:30 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-08 15:30 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 16:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 16:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 17:08 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 17:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 17:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:03 ` Steven Rostedt
[not found] ` <alpine.DEB.1.10.0901081300370.24688@gandalf.stny.rr.com>
2009-01-08 18:14 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 19:17 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:45 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 18:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:27 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:02 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 19:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 19:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 17:40 ` Jiri Kosina
2009-01-09 9:28 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-10 23:59 ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2009-01-08 19:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 20:12 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 10:47 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 15:06 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 15:11 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-09 15:59 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 16:03 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 16:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:44 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 18:16 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-09 18:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 18:33 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 18:41 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 3:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 4:59 ` David Miller
2009-01-09 5:00 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 13:00 ` [patch] measurements, numbers about CONFIG_OPTIMIZE_INLINING=y impact Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 14:03 ` jim owens
2009-01-09 15:35 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 16:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:56 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-10 8:55 ` Chris Samuel
2009-01-09 20:17 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-09 20:29 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 23:28 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-10 0:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 0:37 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-10 0:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:08 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-10 2:12 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-10 4:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 6:44 ` Nicholas Miell
2009-01-09 20:29 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 16:34 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 16:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:47 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 16:46 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 16:51 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 17:07 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 17:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 17:32 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 17:46 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:28 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 17:47 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:39 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 17:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 18:07 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 18:19 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 18:59 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:13 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 19:21 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:10 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:17 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 19:40 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:32 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:09 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 19:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 20:14 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 20:26 ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2009-01-09 20:37 ` Richard Guenther
2009-01-09 21:23 ` Theodore Tso
2009-01-09 21:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-09 20:58 ` Sam Ravnborg
2009-01-09 17:41 ` Dirk Hohndel
2009-01-09 18:02 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 17:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 18:55 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:35 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 19:29 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-09 19:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 19:52 ` Theodore Tso
2009-01-09 22:07 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-09 22:44 ` Andi Kleen
[not found] ` <20090109224410.GQ26290@one.firstfloor.org>
2009-01-09 22:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 22:55 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-09 23:32 ` Sam Ravnborg
2009-01-10 5:29 ` Arjan van de Ven
2009-01-10 5:57 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-11 22:45 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2009-01-09 17:13 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-01-09 15:25 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-08 19:00 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 1:42 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 13:37 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 16:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 16:23 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 16:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 20:41 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 20:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 20:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:34 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 21:41 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 21:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:59 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 22:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 22:13 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 22:25 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-10 0:53 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-10 1:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:13 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 23:12 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 23:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:01 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:20 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:08 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-10 1:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 5:03 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-10 5:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 5:57 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-11 0:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-12 1:56 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-12 8:40 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-10 1:18 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-10 1:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-10 1:41 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-10 3:02 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 12:26 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-11 18:13 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 19:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-11 20:14 ` gcc inlining heuristics was " Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 20:15 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-11 20:34 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-11 20:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-11 23:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 0:12 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 0:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 0:52 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 1:20 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-12 18:06 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-12 19:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 19:32 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-12 19:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-12 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 23:01 ` Jamie Lokier
2009-01-12 23:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 19:42 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.00.0901121128080.6528@localhost.localdomain>
2009-01-12 20:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 22:03 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-13 0:21 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-13 1:30 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-19 0:13 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-19 6:22 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-19 21:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-20 0:51 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-20 12:38 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-20 19:49 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-20 21:05 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-20 21:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-20 22:05 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-21 1:22 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-21 8:54 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 8:52 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-21 9:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 9:25 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-21 9:54 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-21 10:14 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-20 4:20 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-20 17:43 ` Miguel F Mascarenhas Sousa Filipe
2009-01-12 19:55 ` Bernd Schmidt
2009-01-12 20:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-12 7:59 ` Hard to debug kernel issues (was Re: [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning) Chris Samuel
2009-01-10 6:44 ` [PATCH -v7][RFC]: mutex: implement adaptive spinning H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 21:46 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 21:58 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-09 21:15 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-08 19:59 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 1:44 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 2:24 ` Harvey Harrison
2009-01-09 5:05 ` H. Peter Anvin
2009-01-09 3:35 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 3:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-09 6:57 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 6:00 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-09 6:58 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-09 13:05 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 17:23 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 22:54 ` [PATCH -v5][RFC]: " Dave Kleikamp
2009-01-07 23:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 23:49 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-07 23:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-08 2:18 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki
2009-01-08 2:33 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 2:49 ` KAMEZAWA Hiroyuki
2009-01-08 6:52 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-08 14:24 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-08 14:45 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 21:37 ` Andi Kleen
2009-01-07 21:35 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-07 17:20 ` [PATCH -v4][RFC]: " Chris Mason
2009-01-07 17:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-07 18:00 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 3:57 ` [PATCH][RFC]: mutex: adaptive spin Lai Jiangshan
2009-01-07 6:32 ` Peter Zijlstra
2009-01-07 7:34 ` Lai Jiangshan
2009-01-07 13:35 ` Matthew Wilcox
2009-01-06 22:31 ` Paul E. McKenney
2009-01-06 15:55 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:28 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 16:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 17:02 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:54 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2009-01-06 16:59 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 16:19 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-10 17:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-01-06 13:29 ` Nick Piggin
2009-01-06 16:23 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-06 17:08 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-06 17:37 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 18:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 18:20 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-06 18:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2009-01-06 19:03 ` Steven Rostedt
2009-01-05 14:34 ` Btrfs for mainline Chris Mason
2009-01-04 8:32 ` Gabor MICSKO
2009-01-05 14:35 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-05 15:01 ` Tomasz Torcz
2009-01-05 16:30 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-06 19:41 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-07 9:33 ` David Woodhouse
2009-01-07 18:45 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-08 20:15 ` jim owens
2009-01-11 23:34 ` Andrew Morton
2009-01-12 13:58 ` Chris Mason
2009-01-12 15:14 ` Miguel Figueiredo Mascarenhas Sousa Filipe
2009-01-12 15:17 ` Chris Mason
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