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From: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
To: Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>,
	linux-security-module <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>
Cc: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Masahiro Yamada <yamada.masahiro@socionext.com>,
	Gary Lin <GLin@suse.com>, Bruno Meneguele <bmeneg@redhat.com>,
	Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:24:35 -0700
Message-ID: <ba722761-ae29-9f1d-b851-ee2b75e0bb91@schaufler-ca.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <c9828709-c8e1-06a2-8643-e09e2e555b81@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>

On 6/10/2020 12:30 AM, Tetsuo Handa wrote:
> Forwarding to LSM-ML. Security people, any comments?
>
> On 2020/06/10 12:32, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 12:08:20PM +0900, Tetsuo Handa wrote:
>>> On 2020/06/10 9:05, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>>> I think you're still missing that usermode_blob is completely fs-less.
>>>> It doesn't need any fs to work.
>>> fork_usermode_blob() allows usage like fork_usermode_blob("#!/bin/sh").
>>> A problem for LSMs is not "It doesn't need any fs to work." but "It can access any fs and
>>> it can issue arbitrary syscalls.".
>>>
>>> LSM modules switch their security context upon execve(), based on available information like
>>> "What is the !AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW pathname for the requested program passed to execve()?",
>>> "What is the AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW pathname for the requested program passed to execve()?",
>>> "What are argv[]/envp[] for the requested program passed to execve()?", "What is the inode's
>>> security context passed to execve()?" etc. And file-less execve() request (a.k.a.
>>> fork_usermode_blob()) makes pathname information (which pathname-based LSMs depend on)
>>> unavailable.
>>>
>>> Since fork_usermode_blob() can execute arbitrary code in userspace, fork_usermode_blob() can
>>> allow execution of e.g. statically linked HTTP server and statically linked DBMS server, without
>>> giving LSM modules a chance to understand the intent of individual file-less execve() request.
>>> If many different statically linked programs were executed via fork_usermode_blob(), how LSM
>>> modules can determine whether a syscall from a file-less process should be permitted/denied?
>> What you're saying is tomoyo doesn't trust kernel modules that are built-in
>> as part of vmlinux and doesn't trust vmlinux build.
>> I cannot really comprehend that since it means that tomoyo doesn't trust itself.

That's not a rational conclusion.

>>> By the way, TOMOYO LSM wants to know meaningful AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW pathname and !AT_SYMLINK_NOFOLLOW
>>> pathname, and currently there is no API for allow obtaining both pathnames atomically. But that is a
>>> different problem, for what this mail thread is discussing would be whether we can avoid file-less
>>> execve() request (i.e. get rid of fork_usermode_blob()).
>> tomoyo does path name resolution as a string and using that for security?
>> I'm looking at tomoyo_realpath*() and tomoyo_pathcmp(). Ouch.
>> Path based security is anti pattern of security.
>> I didn't realize tomoyo so broken.

A lawyer would respond "asked and answered". This argument is
old. We had it in the 1980's with Unix systems. While you can't
identify a *object* using a path name, you can and must use a
path name to identify *user intentions*. If that were not the case
the audit system would be massively less sophisticated. Whether
path name based controls are valuable on a system with the
namespace characteristics of Linux (complete anarchy) is in the
eye of the beholder.

We have Linux Security Modules (LSM) because, as Linus put it,
"security people are insane" and incapable of agreeing on anything.
Security is inherently subjective. AppArmor make some people feel safe,
while others like SELinux. I understand that eBPF is now the cat's
pajamas. We don't go ripping out existing security just because
someone thinks poorly of it. Security features don't go in all that
often without some malice aforethought.



  reply index

Thread overview: 193+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20200329005528.xeKtdz2A0%akpm@linux-foundation.org>
     [not found] ` <13fb3ab7-9ab1-b25f-52f2-40a6ca5655e1@i-love.sakura.ne.jp>
     [not found]   ` <202006051903.C44988B@keescook>
2020-06-06 19:20     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-06 20:19       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 22:33         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07  1:49           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-07  2:19             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-07 16:09               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:20               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:40                 ` Greg KH
2020-06-08 18:35                 ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09  1:26                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 15:37                     ` Kees Cook
2020-06-09 19:51                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  2:31             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-08 16:23               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 23:22                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09  1:28                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09  5:29                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-09 22:32                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-09 23:30                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  0:05                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  3:08                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10  3:32                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10  7:30                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-10 16:24                                   ` Casey Schaufler [this message]
2020-06-09 20:02                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-09 23:56                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-10 21:12                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-11 23:31                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-12  0:57                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13  3:38                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13  4:22                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-13 14:08                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-13 15:33                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-13 16:14                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-14 14:51                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-16  1:55                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-16 16:21                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:04                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 18:35                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-23 18:53                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-23 19:40                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  1:51                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  4:00                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  4:58                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24  6:39                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24  7:05                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-24 15:41                                                     ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24 17:54                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 19:48                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-24  6:05                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 14:18                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 12:13                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-24 14:26                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-24 23:14                                               ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  1:35                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-25  6:38                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25  9:57                                                     ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 11:03                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:07                                                         ` Greg KH
2020-06-25 14:21                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 19:34                                                           ` David Miller
2020-06-26  1:36                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-06-26  1:51                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  4:58                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  5:41                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26  6:20                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26  6:39                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 12:51                                                               ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 01/14] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:53                                                                 ` [PATCH 02/14] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 03/14] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:54                                                                 ` [PATCH 04/14] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 05/14] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 16:22                                                                   ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 16:45                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  1:26                                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27  4:21                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27  4:36                                                                           ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-26 12:55                                                                 ` [PATCH 06/14] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 15:37                                                                   ` Kees Cook
2020-06-26 16:31                                                                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 07/14] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:56                                                                 ` [PATCH 08/14] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 09/14] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:57                                                                 ` [PATCH 10/14] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 11/14] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:58                                                                 ` [PATCH 12/14] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 13/14] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 12:59                                                                 ` [PATCH 14/14] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 13:48                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:55                                                                   ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:56                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 01/15] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 02/15] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:57                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 03/15] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 19:59                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 04/15] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:00                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 05/15] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:58                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-07-01 17:18                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-01 17:42                                                                           ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:01                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 06/15] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:02                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 07/15] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 08/15] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:03                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 09/15] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:04                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 10/15] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  5:43                                                                       ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 12:14                                                                         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:38                                                                           ` Christoph Hellwig
2020-06-30 14:28                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:55                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29 20:05                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 11/15] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 12/15] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:06                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 13/15] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of " Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:07                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 14/15] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 20:08                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 15/15] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-29 22:12                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30  1:13                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:16                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:29                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 13:21                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 13:08                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 13:40                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-02 16:02                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 13:19                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-03 22:25                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  6:57                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-08  4:46                                                                                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:52                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-01 17:12                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:40                                                                     ` [PATCH v3 00/16] " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 01/16] umh: Capture the pid in umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 02/16] umh: Move setting PF_UMH into umh_pipe_setup Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 03/16] umh: Rename the user mode driver helpers for clarity Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 04/16] umh: Remove call_usermodehelper_setup_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 05/16] umh: Separate the user mode driver and the user mode helper support Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 06/16] umd: For clarity rename umh_info umd_info Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 07/16] umd: Rename umd_info.cmdline umd_info.driver_name Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 08/16] umd: Transform fork_usermode_blob into fork_usermode_driver Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 09/16] umh: Stop calling do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 10/16] exec: Remove do_execve_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  6:35                                                                         ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 12:41                                                                           ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-08 13:08                                                                             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08 13:32                                                                               ` Luis Chamberlain
2020-07-12 21:02                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 11/16] bpfilter: Move bpfilter_umh back into init data Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 12/16] umd: Track user space drivers with struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 13/16] exit: Factor thread_group_exited out of pidfd_poll Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-03 20:30                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-03 21:37                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04  0:03                                                                             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-04 15:50                                                                             ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-07 17:09                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-08  0:05                                                                                 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-07-08  3:50                                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-04 16:00                                                                         ` Christian Brauner
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 14/16] bpfilter: Take advantage of the facilities of struct pid Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 15/16] umd: Remove exit_umh Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 16:41                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 16/16] umd: Stop using split_argv Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-02 23:51                                                                       ` [PATCH v3 00/16] Make the user mode driver code a better citizen Tetsuo Handa
2020-07-09 22:05                                                                       ` [merged][PATCH " Eric W. Biederman
2020-07-14 19:42                                                                         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-07-08  5:20                                                                     ` [PATCH v2 00/15] " Luis Chamberlain
2020-06-26 14:10                                                                 ` [PATCH 00/14] " Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-26 16:40                                                                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-26 17:17                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-26 18:22                                                                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-27 11:38                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-27 12:59                                                                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-27 13:57                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-28 19:44                                                                       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-29  2:20                                                                         ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-29 20:19                                                                           ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30  6:28                                                                             ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 12:32                                                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-30 16:48                                                                               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 21:54                                                                                 ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-30 21:57                                                                                   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-30 22:58                                                                                     ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 12:56                                                 ` [RFC][PATCH] net/bpfilter: Remove this broken and apparently unmantained Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 13:25                                                   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2020-06-25 14:26                                                     ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 14:36                                                       ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 15:21                                                       ` Tetsuo Handa
2020-06-25 16:03                                                         ` Stephen Smalley
2020-06-25 16:06                                                         ` Casey Schaufler
2020-06-26 11:30                                               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  5:58             ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07 11:56               ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-08 16:35                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-08 16:33               ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-06-06 20:43       ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-06-07 15:51         ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-06-07  1:13       ` Tetsuo Handa

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